POLL: What would you do with an UnRuly Child?

[LauriePowell]

I am needing alittle advice on my 14 yr old son. When I state UnRuly I mean UNRULY he has Severe Defience Disorder. We have dealth with it since he was born. No Joke he was like this as a 6 month old baby.

He has refused to do any work at school... ZERO.. He disrespects his teachers and teases other children its embarrassing. We have done nothing but love him and use strict structured discipline throughout his life. He has been in special education all his years then this year he worked his way out into the main stream highschool. But in the last three months he has gotten TERRIBLE>

He tells us hes ashamed of us. Tells us to learn how to prioritize as parents. He calls me lazy, even though when I have worked he calls me neglectful of his needs then when I don't work he calls lazy, that I need to go make some money. He laughs at my sweeping says "why dont you go to work and pay for it like everyone else instead of win it?" He calls his little brother and sister stupid and ignorant. Plus he has been grounded to his room more then he has seen the light of day. We are very positive people and do whats right for our family and others. We tell him he is the Master of his own Destiny. So we do focus on his mental statis going on 14 years now.

We have seen professionals on this we could become them with the knowledge we have now.

Well for the teasing of other kids we decided to take away his name brand clothes and give him walmart clothes. We are going to cut his perfect hair style today into a short haircut. (hes got one of those curly hey dude bob kinda doe..)

This morning his is refusing to walk out of the house in the clothes we bought. (which are nice clothes we spent a pretty penny on them)

He curses at us but we still keep the control in the house. Its a power struggle all day from 6 am too 11 pm everyday. We alway win in the end but its emotionally draining to all of us.

Any advice would be helpful. And this might help he was almost perfect up until 4 months ago and he has regressed years of work and therapy in just a few month....

[allie]

Oh wow. :( I have no idea what to suggest but I was very similar to him at his age and younger. Except if I ever talked to my parents like that, well I just knew not too - they would never physically harm me but I'd be scared to death of the wrath that would entail if I ever made comments about their working/non-working/etc! But I did put off school work, that was my way of being defiant and getting to them (and others). I also just became pure lazy, didn't want to do the work even though I KNEW how too.

I am sorry. I want to offer my prayers though. If it gives you any hope, I practically failed through junior high and my first two years of highschool because I was so lazy and in my own little world. I then graduated six months early my senior year because I finally pulled it together and got DONE! So things can change and I pray that they do. {HUGS}

[Hope]

Laurie,

My son is only 9 years old, so I cannot give you advice regarding a 14 year old.
I can, however, tell you that I was no angel at his age. I remember "talking back" to my parents, and disrespecting them, and I wasn't so nice to my sister either. I outgrew it, and he will too. Since he is the oldest child, there may be some jealousy regarding his younger siblings. Sometimes it's hard to remember what being 14 years old was like. It's not easy for him either, I'm sure.

I'm not sure what to tell you about the school issue. There is something that will make him do his work, respect his teachers, and stop teasing other students. I'm not sure what that something is, but I'm sure you can figure it out.

I'm sorry you're having to go through this. I know it must be frustrating, not to mention hurtful.
My grandmother's favorite saying always was, "when they are small they walk on your toes---as they get older, they walk on your heart."

It sounds to me like you're doing all of the right things. As long as you're being consistant with his disipline, and showing him that you love him, then what else can a parent do?

You will be in my thoughts.:hugs:

[joy5022003]

I am sorry to hear about your troubles I have a 10 year old with ADHD and feel your pain! I am wondering since this started since he started attending regular classes this year if the lack of structure in a regular classroom is just too much for him to handle. I know how nice it must have been for all of you for him to finally be put in regular classes but maybe he's just not ready to handle it. I am dreading high school for my son. 7 different teachers to try to talk to and explain his needs to who have so many other students. I hope you find a way to get him back on track. It also could be 14 year old hormones boys go through that too and later than girls. Sorry I couldn't be more help. Joyce

[groovyguru]

In some ways he sounds fairly normal. I'm sure it is worse being so close to it. I would try to minimize his exposure to negative influences R movies, rap music, other troubled kids, internet/tv in his room, etc. I would also make sure that you all make sure to have fun together as a family to improve that bond.

He may also have that horrible thing called teenage male hormones. It might make him more aggressive, bad tempered, and unfocused. Sorry, but I don't know of any legal cure. Hopefully he knows that he should "take issues in hand" as needed to reduce his tension.

Good luck.

[LauriePowell]

All I can add is he has been diagnoised with, Extreme ADHD, ODD and Organic Brain Syndrome.(he can control himself if he wanted too) We found over the years that is the stage "Teenager" "Terrible Two's" we got it 100x fold. Now we have the teenager and the hormones, we get it 100x fold. This is not stretching it either. I might acually be stating our life lightly because I am so used to the way it is.

Instead of a poll I should of just asked for a mass prayer to happen. Right now I believe our only route is boot camp if that doesn't work then petition him as an unruly child. He will still have to stay with us (which is the only way, I gave birth to him he STAYS) but he will have to check in with Juvenile Couts and explain to the judge why hes like this. And he is have community service to help others in need to try and humble him.

Just a few minutes ago he stated if we give him a haircut he will cut up all the new clothes we bought him. But we did win on him changing his shirt, my Dh is driving him to school as I type.

All I can say is I need a bunch of prayers!!!!!

[allie]

I'd take his clothes away from him and tell him to go naked then! I once didn't clean my bedroom after my parents asked me for a week - my Dad took everything except my box springs out of my room and made me do my homework and eat dinner in there.. on the floor. Not what I'd call abuse, but hard love.

{{HUGS}}

PS Let me clarify this naked thing - I meant take everything but one days worth of clothes.. then don't wash them for him, make him do it. Teens hate wearing the same outfit day in and day out!!

[badkitty]

I am so sorry. This has to be soo hard to deal with. I hesitate to give advice being childless, but having worked with kids in the past, I will say it is super important to make sure your other kids are safe, and can be as healthy as possible. If doing this means needing to remove your son, don't feel guilty- it sounds like you have done everything you could. Sending you warm wishes.

[klsmith001]

Oh my gosh! I can so sympathize with you. I have a 12 year old daughter who is a nightmare. We are at our wits end with her and don't know what to do. She has a lot of jealousy where her younger sister is concerned and has told me that her life was perfect until the little sister was born. She sets the tone every morning for us to have a bad day. She refuses to go to bed at night and that makes it very hard to wake her for school in the morning time. She back talks me and her Dad all the time. We have grounded her from everything and send her to her room just for her to come out two minutes later and the fight is back on. My husband has even threatened to leave because he can't take it anymore. I can't imagine having to face it alone. He stays gone a lot and I know that it is because he isn't ready to come home. I have no advice but wanted you to know that you are not alone. Others face these issues also. She can be a sweet girl but that is a very rare occasion! Good Luck!

[mycology]

He will continue to figt you , no matter what you take away......


If there's no one in your family who is really tough that can take him for a good month or two and make him work for EVERYTHING, and be punished by way of running, pushups, painting the barn...............


military is a good way to go, imo
discipline would (should) be learned fairly quickly.

I would never do those teen camps.....too much trouble, and then he is still with other teens and would have the opportunity to keep strong with some of the stronger willed kids.

I'd definitely say, start it elsewhere since for 14 yrs he acted this way and will know what to expect, and while he is gone I would 'get tough' myself to continue on whatever was 'taught' to him wherever you send him.


I mean you could take away 'all' his clothes, but you can't make him go outside naked, and he knows this.

He knows you can't starve him.

He knows that he could actually sleep on a bare floor.

He knows his hair will grow back.........

He knows he can just keep going on with whatever he's doin.



Good Luck!!!

[groovyguru]

I don't think I would cut his hair dramatically. That is an escalation that will only cause problems. How would you react if your husband cut your hair if you did not obey?

[Hope]

I don't think I would cut his hair dramatically. That is an escalation that will only cause problems. How would you react if your husband cut your hair if you did not obey?

That's what I was thinking as well, Jon. :)

[Micheleisme]

i wonder why some children turn out this way. i have a 3 1/2 year old and i am alredy having problems with him. he sayd no to everything. he wont do anything i ask or tell him to do. i try putting him on a time out and he gets right up and starts screaming then if he gets really mad he throughs things. neither me or my husband act liek that so i dont know where he gets it from. he embarasses me out in public by throughing temper tantums and being very rude to people. im terrified of what he will be like when he is a teenager. some people think that is just normal behavior but i have been around and have taken care of many kids and none of them have ever acted as bad as my son does. hes not bad all of the time. he is the most stubourne person i have ever met. i hope things change for us and for you. i wish i had some help to give you but i just wanted to tell that you are not alone.

[maynardmom6]

I am a single mom with six daughters, the oldest are 17 year old triplets, two of the triplets give me the biggest headaches, they have often refusedd to do homework, refused to go to school, the list is endless...i finally enrolled them both in an alternative high school, they now go to school 3 hours a day , they only get the basics, math,science, english...no choir, art, band, no fluff stuff, then they must work at least 10 hours a week at a job, this is mandated by the school. I used to yell and cry and be frustrated with them all the time...then one day this speaker came to their high school and he talked about how 10 seconds can change your life, (his wife was killed by a drunk driver) he speach motivated me to realize that those girls are in charge of their own destinies and that there are 4 other children in this house that need my positive attention and that no longer was i going to spend countless hours being angry with the situation, i no longer" sweat the small stuff", i give my advice and i let them suffer the natural consequences...for instance two of my triplets will not be graduating on time , they will have to graduate a year behind their sister...i have found that no amount of yelling or punishing can change a teen, sometimes the yelling and disruptions seem to be what they want, by ignoring some of their behaviors i discovered they did them less often because the thrill was gone so to speak. good luck with your son, and do keep in mind... i heard once that god made teens so crazy so that parents would have an easier time letting them go when they became young adults. keep smiling it will get better.

[banzai]

I'm sorry that you are going through this. Could putting him back in special ed help? Maybe that change is bringing some of this on? My brother has a 14 year old son who was a big problem. They changed schools (put him in my daughters school, who is a good influence on him) and he is doing much better attitude wise. He is working on his grades because he wants to play sports. They also enrolled him in a program called Young Marines. I don't know if they have a program like this in your area but it was a huge incentive for him to do better. He loves participating in the group and is working harder at his attitude. Young Marines teaches respect. Is there somebody that your son looks up to who can sit him down and have a talk with him? I'm sorry that you are going through this and hope it gets better soon.

[Bigfootsmother]

wow, if he has beeen diagnosed with what you say he has, I assume he takes meds

My oldest sister has a son who is 18, he is exactly like your son, ever since he was a baby, she has tried everything, everything she tries to make him do, he just runs away or causes more trouble

He has been taking meds for years, had counseling, a boys home, etc... but I think for lack of money was unable to get real, serious professional help

He has been in and out of Juvenile Jail for a couple years now and just recently spent a week in Adult Jail

I feel so sorry for him, he cannot control himself, deep down he is a good boy and we all know it

Do whatever you can to get your son some serious help!!

[LauriePowell]

My son can control himself he choses not too. When he wants something like to go to a football game he can be sweet as pie for us and school for a WHOLE week. He only does this if its something he wants. If we ask him to take the garbage out it a battle for he believes its more then his sister or bother might do at that given time or that he took it out the night before. He has to disagree with the color of the sky!!!! Everything is negative but he always blames others for his life and problems.

He can't take meds. He has been on all the meds under the sun. My son is brillant he out thinks the meds. They work for about 1 to 3 months then it gets worse. He will use the meds as a reason for doing something wrong. He has been hospitalized, medicated and counseled since he was 9 months old. Yes 9 months old he would fight with playdo and rip it apart and throw it against walls. He would bite us, run and laugh. He is a wonderful child when we can look past these issues. He can make up some funny jokes, hes a brillant artist but he has NO social skills. He hates women and loaths men. He is right and has many reasons in his mind why he is right. No one can tell him to respect anyone unless he feels that person has given him enough respect.

Its a never ending battle in this house. Thank god for my husband. He took Blaine on when he was 2 years old and treated him like his own. We as parents draw the line together and back eachother up regardless of the venom that comes out of him.

[meowpossum]

I feel for both of you. Your son reminds me a lot of myself at his age. I think that a military type boarding school might be a good thing for both of you, and give you both a little break from each other. Your son might actually like the challenges, the cameraderie, and the discipline, and the "peer pressure" dynamic there is totally different from in public school.

I think some of your other solutions are more likely to breed further anger and defiance than to help either one of you. I understand that you feel desperate, but deliberately cutting his hair to make him look ridiculous is just not a good thing to do to a teenager, and putting him under court-authoity to obey you is just going to make him act out more. If you don't have a particular school in mind, can I recommend you to check out Valley Forge Military Academy?

[Hope]

He can't take meds. He has been on all the meds under the sun. My son is brillant he out thinks the meds. They work for about 1 to 3 months then it gets worse.

Laurie,
Often these meds have to be adjusted/changed to fit the patient's needs.

His problems sound medical to me. I doubt sending him somewhere will help matters at all. If he is suffering from a medical problem, he needs medical help.

The important thing for you to know that he did not choose to have this problem, and you or anyone else did nothing to cause this problem.

You said he can be "sweet as pie" for a whole week, thus leading you to believe that he can control himself. I know a child that is Bipolar (I'm not suggesting that your son is), that would be just as polite and kind as any kid could be for weeks at a time, then BAM....he would explode. People with these medical conditions can seem "normal" for extended periods at a time.

Taking things away from him such as clothes, music, tv, ect. will not help either if he is suffering from a medical condition.
He can get better. Meds can help him, he is not a hopeless case. He just needs the right combination of meds.

I know you and your husband must be going through Hell right now. My prayers are with you! :hugs:

[susieand]

This is a really hard situation...I didn't answer your poll bc I'm not sure if any of those are the answers. I see that many people have chosen military camp though. I guess this may be a good idea. Your son needs to realize how lucky he is to be in such a good family situation and to have all of the advantages he has. Maybe make him volunteer (I know, this is an oxymoron) at a place where people aren't very fortunate. Tell him if he doesn't appreciate what he has been given, he doesn't deserve to have it. I could never imagine disrespecting my parents after all they have given me. Your son sounds extremely LUCKY and many teens would kill to be in his position. I'm sorry you and the rest of your family has to go through this.

[TinyMoMo]

The best 1800(per year) bucks my parents ever spent was:

Sending my younger brother to Massanutten Military Academy in Virginia!

When he was 13, he was horrible- far worse than what you are dealing with now. Mom and Dad did not want him tagged in the court system, so off he went. Kicking and screaming.

He was totally changed after 3 months, and stayed there to graduate, learning to mentor the younger ones. he is now a police officer-twice decorated, and an all around great guy.
He is 29 now, and the school still exists. Worth every penny. Get some Peace in your household. it was fair to everyone else in the family.

I have 5 kids, ranging from ages 2-17, and have not had those kinds of issues, but If I did, I know where to definitely go!

Good Luck! :)

[ifionly1]

Laurie,
You are in my prayers as I know this is very hard on you. My son was a handful at that age also.
Maybe the best thing to do is to have him re-evaluated mentaly and go from there.
For your own safety (and the rest of the family) maybe military school would do him some good.
You haven't posted anything about any
violence but I think that if he continues this way
he may be a danger to himself or possibly others (you/family).
Take care and again, you are in my prayers.
Frances

[LauriePowell]

The thing with my sons hair is unique. We have always encourages being ones self regardless of what others think of you. (looks) We are a unique family we have always allowed him to have opinions and encourages his evaluations of the world around him. We talk openly about everything under the sun. Anything goes as long as there is love, understanding and respect.

Now to the hair. My son is 6'2 140 pounds. He is a very good looking young man. We have always had his hair short because it was unruly. But I had a wonderful idea I could see in my head. He has wonderful hair why not over the summer grow it out through the afro into the long curls block cut right under his ears. Its a style that takes maintance with jells and sprays. He fought with me about growing it out his ODD coming into play. But I kept telling him it would look great in the end. He would always say ok I will at least try it.

When it grew in I was right and he admitted it to me that it looked great. The girls loved it and the guys wished they had the curls to do it. His teacher(Special Ed) has asked us many time to please cut it some around the eyes for she can't see them. There are reasons for that, she needs to know when he is rolling his eyes, glaring or under the influence of a substance.

When we said we wanted to cut his hair it was not a cut to embarrass him it was an altering. So that the eyes can be seen plus then he couldn't use his hair, clothes and style to demean others around him. "Your stupid because you don't have hair like mine" or "You buy your clothes at walmart that makes you SLOW" He is arrogant and VAIN. Sad to say because he is my son but he bases what a person is by how they look.

Just had to clear up the hair issue....

[allie]

Laurie,
Often these meds have to be adjusted/changed to fit the patient's needs.

His problems sound medical to me. I doubt sending him somewhere will help matters at all. If he is suffering from a medical problem, he needs medical help.

The important thing for you to know that he did not choose to have this problem, and you or anyone else did nothing to cause this problem.

You said he can be "sweet as pie" for a whole week, thus leading you to believe that he can control himself. I know a child that is Bipolar (I'm not suggesting that your son is), that would be just as polite and kind as any kid could be for weeks at a time, then BAM....he would explode. People with these medical conditions can seem "normal" for extended periods at a time.

Taking things away from him such as clothes, music, tv, ect. will not help either if he is suffering from a medical condition.
He can get better. Meds can help him, he is not a hopeless case. He just needs the right combination of meds.

I know you and your husband must be going through Hell right now. My prayers are with you! :hugs:

I had to add a HUGE DITTO to Hope's post. I really am starting to think this is something more than he can control. This sounds an awful lot like a situation I just went through with a loved one, the person finally got on anti-depressants (and they had to be regulated because the first dosage wasn't enough but the second dosage was too much) and now that person is doing very well.

[Mary Beth]

I agree that this is a medical problem. But I don't think medical science has gotten to the point where your son's problems can be easily solved with a pill. Maybe they will one day, after more research on the brain and its functioning. I wish, for your sake, that that day had already arrived.

DH's brother's eldest son had some very similar problems. They finally found a school for him in Virginia, which was tailored for boys with behavioral problems. There was some of the military school discipline at this school, too. He did so well there that he stayed on for a year after graduating to help out with the other kids. It was a complete turn-around.

[LauriePowell]

I have never ruled out medications. He has tried most of them. When we would start a new med we would have a goal sheet on the medication of cause and effects. Everyday it was used to see if medication dosages needed to be changed. We altered and regulated and gave each drug at a minimum of 3 months up to a year depending on the amount of time it takes to see changes(per drug)(blood levels) Giving the med a fair chance to work.

It never worked. Last week we were in a meeting about Blaine at school and they looked at all the meds he had been on. First thing that came to one persons mind was "Could we be looking at a rage disorder?" or a disorder of some sort. Our next goal is to have him tested for illness's that are raised up and show themselves through puberty.

We have been so active with him all these years that we try to cover all the bases. Right now we all agree that we are looking at an Extreme Form of ODD (Oppisitional Defience Disorder)

Plus I am tired of only medicating the surface and not dealing with the real issue.

Plus we have to have somewhat of a normal life somewhere somehow. I know thats selfish and we are not asking for perfection we are only wanting the negative comments to stop.

Everyone is STUPID
Everyone is beneath him
Everyone needs to respect him
When we laugh its not a good enough reason for why we are laughing. (Normal day good converstations)
Everything we talk about is a waste of his time
Whats for dinner is not good enough
What he gets for his b-day is not good enough
Anything someone gets is trash not worth anything
Walking in the house saying"I see you haven't mopped today"
"Are you going to be a good mother today"
"I am ashamed of my dad hes only a truck driver"
"When grandma died I wish it would of been you dad"

The list goes on and on. He also says it so calmly its scary. I over cooked his pizza a month or so ago and boy did I hear it.

He is like this everyday and we stand our ground and not allow it. But he disregards it does the consequence and laughs at us...

We are lost....... I am sorry this is getting so indepth but I have never known a child like him and neither has the special ed department he is unique in himself. Professionals can't even peg it they say their is no label for it.

Thank you ALL I am really liking the opinions and ideas. Right now we will take as many as your willing to dole out to us.

[Hope]

http://www.aacap.org/publications/factsfam/72.htm

Maybe this will help. :)

[LauriePowell]

Thank you Hope..........

Wonderful article. I read it and it is my son everyday all day and night. Not a minute goes by that his ODD is hidden.

I read through everything and most of it has been structured into our life since he was 4 so we've been doing everything on this list for 10 years.

Adding to the article most children with ODD can as they call conform to the structure in time. My son hasn't even with doing everything by text book.

But it is a wonderful article parents just noticing their child is more defient then other children would learn wonders from that article.

My son has had his good moments over the years.(good to us but still unruly to others)(hes still always negative) When nothing goes wrong, not much change has occured everything seems to pan out. Hes been tested for Bipolar and is not.

I was just sitting here when you posted thinking to myself about researching again on disorders. I did about a year ago but technology is advancing so much I know there alot new data out there on this subject. Time to start looking I guess.....

Thank you again Hope searching or reading information is always a good outlet for the parents.
Laurie

[Maineiac]

Laurie,

I don't have any answers for you, only a little insight on what I've learned from working in the mental health field. Sounds like your son has been labeled since he was nine months old...that's unbelievable that a clinician would put such a burden on you as well as a baby. You must have been devastated. At no fault of your own, this child has been made to believe he is "different, difficult and unlovable" by members of the mental health community and the school system. You mentionsed he's been on many medications in the past, that alone is a stigma and reinforces the mindset that "something's wrong with me".

He is obviously a very angry young man and has very poor self esteem, despite his raging about others shortcomings. I will guarantee you he was made fun of in school (special ed), hence his bullying others now. I saw you write that your husband has been in his life since he was 2 yrs. old. Are your other two children from your marriage with your husband? Again he feels "different" and odd man out. Of course he won't articulate that, he may not even recognize it.

Threatening, grounding and forced compliance are nothing more than a power and control struggle. This young man already feels out of control and if one backs someone into a corner, that person is naturally going to fight his way out, thus creating more hate and discontent.

Tonight, take a long hot bath, remeber your awe when this child was born and realize how vulnerable he still is, if in a different way. Before you go to bed, say something nice to him. I know, I know, it's hard when you're so disappointed and pissed off. Maybe something like "Wow, I never noticed how blue your eyes are, they're beautiful" or "You make me laugh sometimes when I want to cry" (remember you said he could be funny).

Seek out at least one or two positive things to say to him tomorrow morning, even if you have to fake it. Even if it's as simple as "Gee, those jeans fit you nicely". If he's sarcastic or mean, let it roll off your back. Don't respond to the negativity...DON'T.

As far as forcibly cutting his hair...another power and control issue, please don't do it. He's 14 yrs old and establishing his pecking order with his peers. Does this boy have friends, BTW?

Finally, have you thought about the Big Brothers program? They have a wonderful mentoring program and try very hard at matching up kids with folks of the same interest model.

I know my post probably sounds simplistic and you've probably already done what I have said and more. But sometimes with my own boys I have to take two steps back, take a deep breath and think before I react. Hot baths and wine help with that...trust me.

[mlso]

Maineiac
Great advice for ALL parents of ALL children (especially teenagers).
My 15 yr old son is very upset with me due to my recent divorce. He is shutting me out where ever he can. I recently asked my friends what I could do to try to convinence him I'm not the horrible Mother he thinks I am. I think the possitive remarks are a great place to start (although I can already see the stupid look he is going to give me)

Laurie - hang in there. Take time for yourself. Talking to people not so close to the situation can sometimes help find a solution. It's hard to know what's best when you're so close to the situation.

[nancy_k1]

I'm so sorry for all that you are going through. You love him or you wouldn't be asking this question. It may be hard but in your heart you know what you should do. You just need someone to say it. Well no one can tell you what to do. If you feel that you and your family are strong enough to carry on the way you are then I say do it. If you are at the end then find it in your heart to do what is really best for you all. I know sending him away to a foster home isn't the answer. You have to care for him too much for that. Some of the other options are good though. Military School is structured and he would have to obey the rules or else. That would be tough love and you would have to stand by your decision. You couldn't go get him if he called in a week or two and cried. No matter what your decision is you have to stand strong. I am sending a prayer your way in hopes that things work out the way that is best for you and yours. Good luck!

[LauriePowell]

Well this battel is over finally. Took three months of stubborness and we finally got our way. I have been using all the advice from this site and another site called www.conductdisorders.com and found the way we would deal with this battle.

This was a battle we had to take on. Its not like it was a small event that we could overlook this issue dealt blows to others and disrupted classroom and home life.

This is what we did. (Also remember we are dealing with ODD and you have to have tough love to get anything across to them.)

We called him into the livingroom after the Dh and I had a long talk and read all the posts from this site and the site from above. The site above the advice came from parents of children just like my son to some degree or another.

We removed all the name brand and bought nice walmart clothes. This due to the relentless teasing of others who don't have his priviledge of expensive name brand Ekco and Fubu clothes. We told him he could earn his clothes back peice by peice as long as the teasing was discontinued of others.

At this point we gave him a choice he had to make within one hours time. He had to think this converstation over and come to us and tell us how he sees this issue. His answers would be the base of the issus if his hair would be put into a "Normal" style.

Heres what he had to analyze.

1.) We needed to see at least a 10% improvement in behavior at school and at home. (this is an acceptable goal for a child who has difficulty with emotions)(we can't ask for perfection)

2.) The Teasing had to STOP 100%. No more PERIOD teasing other children for being handicapped or poorer then himself.

3.) He needed to take responsibility for his actions and not push it off onto someone else. That there is a reaction for every action.

At this point we told him conversation was over and he had one hour to think and come up with what he wanted to tell us.

One hour later (around there) he came out. Calmly he stated he was very sorry for how he has been acting. That sometimes he thinks hes so right that it upsets him when someone says differently but that he had no right to become so mean during these times. He said he realized that he caused all the caos in the household and he understood why we took his clothes away. He said he needed to Stop, Breath, Think and then Speak. (My saying)

We were in shock it is RARE that he admits he has made a not so good choice in his actions. Lastnight he helped me prep dinner, laughed and talked with me and his sister. (which is rare) This morning he put the clothes I bought on and acually thought the sweater was kinda cool. (preppy when he is normally urban style) He said goodbye, have a nice day and I love you. That is usually me saying that when he is on his way out the door. He even asked me earlier in the am if I would give him a trim his hair was getting kinda bushy as he called it.

So one battle partially over. It will never completely go away but small steps is all we are looking for.

I am a firm believer in Picking you Battles but sometimes as a parent you have to Pick the Big Ones the little ones can slide...

Thank you all!!!!!! All these opinions and advice between this board and another helped us tweek and peak how we dealth with this issue.....

Laurie

[Maineiac]

That's fabulous! My cogratulations to your son for making some tough admissions and responsible decisions.

[groovyguru]

You two are sounding like great parents. I hope your family can work it all out together. I'm sure there will be ups & downs, good luck.

[Hope]

:) Good luck, Laurie.
It sounds to me like you'll see progress soon enough! :)

[VSLibby]

Laurie,

I am SO glad that your family is working through a solution to this problem! I have been hoping for the best for your family since June

http://www.online-sweepstakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61040&highlight=lifeguard

and of course when your son had difficulty in school in September, I was very concerned

http://www.online-sweepstakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80155

I applaud your efforts with your son, particularly your insistence that "The Teasing had to STOP 100%. No more PERIOD teasing other children for being handicapped or poorer then himself."

As a soon-to-be parent of a Latina who no doubt will not always have all the economic advantages of her classmates, I thank you from the bottom of my heart for trying to dissuade your son from the type of behavior that I fear most as a parent.

:gvibes:
--Valerie

[Heather]

My brother was very similar to this... very wild and crazy most of the time. We still loved him lots though. I'm very sorry for your situation... and I dont know what to tell you, as my brother did pass away at 14. :worry: We didnt get to see him blossom into a hopeful, smart young man. he died in a car accident in the passenger seat with another teen. that teen never spent one day of his life in jail. when i hear stories like yours, it makes me very sad to think what could have been and what he would be like now in his early 20's.
all i can say is this: even though it may be one of the toughest or most difficult days of your life in dealing with his behavior, still RELISH it, because believe ME, you never know when things could very unexpectedly change. i wish to God i had been nicer to my brother than i was at times. but i have to remember the good times.
I am sure your son will change around 22, as most men do. It's a long time off, but will be here before you know it. Most likely, when he becomes interested in girls, he may see the light and try to act better, if only temporarily. Is it a possibility to get him into sports heavily or doesnt he want to do that? Or how about an intense art class, if he's good and likes it?? If it werent for sports 5 days of the week AND 4 different sports too, I dont know how my parents would have managed. I KNOW that gymnastics for boys/ teens completely ZAPS the energy out of them... much MORESO than most people would ever have imagined. it takes so much body strength to do all those things, and having taught a boys class myself, it was soo much FUN for them and ME.

Wish i had some better suggestions, but I will be thinking of you and your family and hope you somehow come up with the solution that is right for you soon. Some things in life arent fair, and will never be understood, but can only be dealt with the best we know how. Good luck and thanks for the updates... it definitely gives more insight! :)

[beachbrat]

I don't think this has been mentioned...
You said he was doing good for awhile and now again.
Maybe he is or was using drugs?
Maybe something is going on he can't talk about?

My advice as a Mother would be check that out, don't change his hair or his clothes or send him away.

Sometimes all you can do is love them and hope for the best!

[doctorstrangelove]

Lisa: It may be bleak, but this music's really getting to the crowd.
Bart: Aw, making teenagers depressed is like shooting fish in a barrel.
The Simpsons


As a single parent who's dealt with a similar situation I can tell you the next few years are going to be stressful and not without periodic episodes of unruly behavior. Your teenage son is growing up in a world that is far different than the one we expreienced. At age 14 peer pressure, hormones and a lack of emotional maturity combine to create on hellish identity crisis and a great deal of his rage will be focused on the people he's most familiar with, his family. It can be a daily "battle" if you let it take those proportions and it typically ends up with unresolved and uncertain outcomes.

You've taken an essential first step-- drawing the line. Teens spend an inordinate amount of time searching for structure in their lives. What they don't get at home they'll find elsewhere. It doesn't matter if you are 100% right in setting the rules for your son. The important thing is that the rules are there. They will undoubtably change over time as your child matures but unless you have a foundation you'll have nothing to build upon.

Drugs and gangs. Get educated and don't treat either problem as a passing phase. Don't expect your child's school to alert you to the problem. They will do very little to help you. Be vigilant. The odds are you will experience problems with drug abuse or gang violence in the next few years. This goes for teens from just about every socio-economic and cultural background. You can't pick their friends but you sure can and should get lots of information about who they are hanging around with.

Special education. Take your bullshit detector with you when you partipate in IEP meetings, you'll need it. 15 minutes after you walk out the door they'll completely forget their role in your child's education. Demand documentation and don't let them sell you on the notion that your child is the problem and they are the wise ones with a solution. Parents and the students should be equal partners in the process. Many educators are unquaified to work with children with special needs. Often the school is more interested in the extra dollars they will receive for serving special ed students. The deliverables are often ignored and unmet. If weekly progress reports aren't forthcoming get after the teachers and demand a meeting. Remember, they are supposed to be working for you.

With the multiple learning disorders you mentioned I don't think sending your son away to military school is a good idea. Yes, you may sleep better at night. Yes, he'll get structure there. But it may serve to mask his underlying disorders with a short-lived period of false, pro-social adjustment. He may feel abandoned. If he fails at military school what will be your next step?

Clothes and hair! The short answer is if he wants the special label clothes he need to get a job. Otherwise, the family sticks to the clothes budget. My son has discovered that thrift stores aren't all that bad. Once they are faced with a decision to buy clothes they don't need or something else they really want (music, movies, cell phones, a car, a social life..) the issue will take care of itself.

Unruly hair is the style nowadays. The more pillowheaded the boys look the more the girls like it. And with the girls its' wearing that belly-button revealing top with the Just-above-the-pubes jeans. Remember, they are cooler and much smarter than we every were at that age.

My son is half Indian and he's probably got the longest hair of any young men in his high school. He takes great pride in his cultural identity and I wouldn't think of asking him to cut it. Two years ago, before I figured out the uncombed look was in, I was after him to "at least comb it" about five times a day. I took a while but we worked through it. Incidently, my hair was that long when I was in high school.

You make a good point about picking your battles well. Just try to avoid letting all those differences between you and your child turn into battles. Remember they are experts at pushing your buttons! Its' OK to get upset and its' OK to lay down the law. Sometimes the little battles are the ones you need to win in order to avoid bigger ones later. Trust your instincts, you'll be right 99% of the time.

I'd swear, sometimes my son gets grounded just so he'll have an excuse to stay home. About half the time when he screws up it happens right after I've thought that we'd made a bit of progress. Baby steps. Take it one day at a time.



:cool2: :cool2: :cool2:

[LauriePowell]

The day I updated when I said he had come around changed later that day.

He decided he was going to run away!!!!!! I calmly told my dh and we called the police. When he was attempting to leave my house he walked through he violently. I ended up with injuries. Bruised windpipe, bruises on my legs and threw my back out. He hasn't been violent with me in a few yrs.

Everyone has to remember he is 6'2 I am only 5'5. I am not a big person so it doesn't take much to throw me around.

To make a long story short we filed a report on him as a runaway meaning they have to take him to Juvy. We did this at 5 pm. By 8 we had a call saying my son called them and turned me in for abuse. I used self defense as lightly as I could when he harmed me. The officer called us and told us what he said but the next thing was kinda funny "Ms Powell would you like me to bring him home or just take him straight to juvy?" Almost ignoring what my son said. I told him to take him to juvy.

First offense they processed him and called us to come get him. We all didn't say a word. We didn't need too he was realizing you can't cry wolf and get your way when you are mad. It had backfired on him.

So then we went through the holidays. He hasn't acted out since that night other then his normal "I hate this" or "thats stupid" or "your stupid" or his famous "Duh". No major battles since that night. We haven't asked him what he thought of juvy for we know our response would be "It was Ok." We always warned him that day would come and he would have to face the consequences. It fell on his doorstep that night.

DRSTRANGELOVE..... :laugh:

I love the comment about bullshit detector.... I do IEP's for all three of my kids BTDT & bought the t-shirt. I have learned to be the best advocate for my son. I know the laws inside and out I could probaly run the meetings which I normally do anyhow. I get my way I know what is at his fingertips when he is special ed. I think that is why we have came this far over time if I hadn't he wouldn't of ever gotten out of MIP to mainstream for a time. Even though he wasn't ready we found out but he showed them for a period of time that he was.

I can also tell you must of dealt with a similar situation. Just by how you look at things. I could just image how it was like to be single and doing it. I did it for two yrs and almost lost my mind. Thank god for the dh I have now! I pat you on the back!!!!!!!!

[alysaryn2]

Laurie I'm so sorry you had to go through that!
pm'd you :)

[doctorstrangelove]

Laurie--

I'm very sorry to hear that things had escalated to violence. I know it must have been a terrible oreal and I'm glad to hear circumstance have changed for now.

In your last paragraph you mentioned something I didn't pick up on earier-- that you'd remarried. That change in family dynamic may be one of the core issues for him. Have you considered family counseling? You have other kids and they, too, are impacted by this problem.

I have a few suggestions. Just FWIW stuff--

Teens that threaten to leave home are just doing it to push your buttons. If he really wanted to leave home he would have done it unannounced. In a sense, you may have been suckered in to the conflict. He has absolutely no reason to "walk through you" other than to pick a fight. He tested you for a response and now he thinks he knows how you will act the next time he threatens to do it.

Juvenile services. Now he knows what that's all about but it sounds like it didn't effect his outlook on things. Thats' a "big gun" in my book and I would have saved it for later--perhaps if he actually had run off for a longer period of time. You both probably needed a "cooling off" period. I just wouldn't bring those guys in until he did something more egregious-- like taking the family car without permission or staying away from home for a longer period of time. What is the consequence of a second offense---for him and you?

Do you really want the courts to intervene in your family problems? They'll send a second rate social worker in to help you "manage" the household situation and you may end up making absolutely no progress in creating the change you want to see.

I have a male family member who said ""It was Ok." to his first contact with JV. Then he ended up in the county detention center and "It was Ok.". The next step, state detention facilities and "It was Ok." A few years later, you guessed it, prison. He's out now. Our fingers are crossed. He has two children to support.

The problem is if he doesn't value the good things in his life he won't avoid the types of behavior that lead to a bad consequence. Find a way you can work with your son towards reaching mutually acceptable goals that he has in mind. Yes, all you are going to hear for a while is that everything sucks and he doesn't want anything. Quietly remind yourself that the voice you hear is his "inner jack ass" talking and let it go. The best time to engage him is when he is already involved in something he enjoys doing-- playing with the dog, shooting baskets, listening to music....The train is moving, get on it. Timing is everything. Good luck!--

Another thought-- Do you have any other family members or friends that he can spend some time with--grandparents, aunts, uncles, people you trust. Divide and conquer. Build in some cooling off periods in your schedule. In my book three days at grandma's house is three more days closer until the day he grows up!

[LauriePowell]

Doctorstrangelove:

With being remarried since my son was 2 has been wonderful. Blaine IS my husbands son in his eyes. Blaine also loves his step father dearly. Step father has never been used in this household. My x husband hasn't been around for years he calls every now and then. My son has stated over the yrs that his father that is here with us has been more of a father then his real one ever would be.

We have been through all the therapists in the world over the years I could probaly train them. :laugh:

Juvenile services had to be brought in we have had many problems over the yrs. Such as vandilizm, stealing and some violence.

We have a support system limited but it is there. My sister and her husband take him once or twice a month to give us all a break. My father lives with my sister, he moved out of our house when my mother died laSt year on November 9th.

I agree also with something you said a few posts ago. Sometimes the smaller battles you have to take on. You are so very right. Some people might think something so small is stupid to address but if it connects to something bigger as I call it "The Bigger Picture" it needs to be pointed out.

Our house is so positive and loving. We make it that way and we take the time out everyday to do so. We believe in giving and kindness in the end it will be returned 10 fold. Plus you can carry around a light soul. I stay home to make sure they have love when they leave to school and love when they come home. If its been a bad or good day they know they can come home and be happy. It is sooooo hard to balance the positive with negative, sometimes my sons negativity starts to wear on everyone.

You are right about engaging him in his activities when he is happy. We try and do thaT daily. But on the other hand we require him to be part of the family. When is little brother or sister are happy and laughing we require that he NOT down them in anyway. As in calling them stupid or mocking them. We alway tell him they listen to you, laugh with you and smile with you give them the same in return. Some people might call that little or useless battle but in our house it build respecting other on how they feel or think.

Maybe you should be on the conductdisorder sight board helping some parents when they are stressing, you are on the ball... :cheer7:

[doctorstrangelove]

Laurie--

Just a couple of other considerations-- it sounds like you've had lots to deal with over recent years. I didn't realize the "Doctor Phil" depth of the problems. Dang, you have had it rough!!!

Does it seem like the problem behavior comes at certain times of year, like around holidays? I noticed when my kids were in junior high school that early December was "watch out for trouble time" and I think it had something to do with their annual Christmas visit to mom's house. Or maybe its' tied to school related stress.

You mentioned in an earlier post that your son was very artistic and talented. Does he have creative outlets like art classes at school? That may help. My son would go bonkers if he didn't have his art classes.

My son had dual IEPs--gifted and learning disabled. The think that really annoyed me with his early IEP meetings was that they totally ignored his creative needs and structured all their "supportive services" around his learning deficits. I wanted a more balanced approach and I fought for years to get it.

The conduct disorder issues you are dealing sound emotionally overwhelming. I didn't check anything listed in your pole because I think there is no simple solution to the problem. I wish you well. --Dave

[GTBuzz]

Laurie,

Wow, you are going through a lot. I read all of the posts and it sounds like you have received good advice from people who have been in similar situations. Let me say that it sounds like you and your husband are wonderful parents and your son is very very fortunate to be in your home.

It is hard for others to give advice as you know the situation firsthand and ultimately the best thing to do. It sounds like you are open minded and willing to try counseling and medical screenings etc. That is great and keeping that up sounds like a positive step. I think it is great that you set boundaries and explained to him why the clothes were being taken, but also gave him a way to get the privelidges back. (ie: earning them).

As you have noted there is no magic pill or one solution that is going to solve this. You have been dealing with this for almost 14 yrs. My biggest concern is the lack of respect and especially him hurting you. Counseling and pills might help the situation but they will not teach respect. I would have thought the trip to juvenile hall would have scared him into showing respect, but it sounds like that hasnt. The only thing I would say is maybe keep the military school option open (not saying it is the solution) but if he is that large and if he continues to be abusive you have to think of the security of the rest of the family. I hope it doesn't come to that, but maybe if he is aware that that option is out there it may make him settle a little. I know others have posted that that will only make him madder...I have seen shows on "scared straight" and others..and what I see is all those kids are furious but within a few hours those military men have those kids in line...they see there negative or "tough guy" actions will get them nowhere. Again, I hope that is not what has to happen but sometimes those military types schools/programs really turn kids around and help them channel their anger into more constructive results.

I will say a prayer for you and your family. I hope your son gets better and starts working with you. You sound like a very positive person, but it can't hurt for me to send you positive vibes to help out :gvibes:

Good luck.

Heather :)

[kambi]

I had the teenager from Hell!! All that you speak about and more. I went and petitioned the court for a CHINS. Child in need of services. which is more or less probation and the threat of the youth detention center. No more bad kid. I don't know if it would work for you, but it has done wonders for us. Good luck.

[allie]

Laurie - I just wanted you to know you and your family are still in my prayers. I hope and pray that things improve somehow or another over time. {{HUGS}} and thoughts for you. :)

[LauriePowell]

Thank you Allie.. It really does mean alot. Today is the first time I can swallow without pain. Could you imagine what it waS like thanksgiving day when I could not eat or drink cause it hurt!

But again I thank you.. I have a smile on my face nothing will ruin my christmas decorating week!!!!! I love this time of year!!!

Laurie

[tmo49150]

It sounds like you are doing a lot of things right. I have a 16 yr old who has ADHD and minor learning disabilities. My sister’s son has issues that sound a lot like your son's. I found the school to be a big help. I think the best thing I saw my sister provide was consistent discipline, consistent expectations and a consistent schedule. I would also say to pick your battles. Choose two or three things that bother you the most and let the other stuff go. I am sorry you are in this difficult situation it’s so consuming.

[doctorstrangelove]

Hey Laurie--

Have things settled down? Mine is acting up again--typical end of semester crash, burn and run behavior. Not completing school assignments, skipping class, mouthing off way too much, etc... He's supposed to be job hunting-- last month he ran up a $200 cell phone bill. Ah, Christmas!

[cpnqn]

I am the mother- that everyone else brings the kids to so that I can 'fix' them. He isn't unruly--he is down right rude! There are certain things that my own children will and will NOT say to me. I am in the South- so for starters, I EXPECT to be answered yes ma'am and no ma'am- as I am their elder and will not tolerate being answered otherwise. That holds true for any adult my kids meet.
I was 21 when I had my first son, by 23- I got my first wayward child- Devin, he was flunking out of school, extremely dis-organized, very 'unkempt', he didn't lift a finger to help, he was rude, and of course that MOUTH- ewww- that language was a killer!
I put him in church with me, had him learn to answer properly, took away his grungy clothes (this was a battle I won by buying really NICE namebrand stuff in exchange), once I removed the clothes the grades came up and his friends gradually changed, his potty mouth was quickly cured when although he was 16- I had him in the mirror repeating the words he just said to himself repeatedly... (most things are accomplished in the fact that KIDS need to EAT-) this is a basic, and I love to cook large meals with great deserts- so if they want to eat- then they must follow rules. That is a basic. I would never starve or hit a kid- I always left their plates on the table made for them for when they are done- but made it very clear- MY HOUSE- MY RULES!
As far as calling ME LAZY? I would jump on that like no tomorrow- explaining- let me tell you first who I am- Your mother- I carried you for 9 months and have raised you thus far, I provide your food, clothing and shelter-- I am also the same Lazy woman that wiped your butt, as well as your nose and still does the latter some days- YOU WILL NOT EVER call me lazy, the next time you do- I can promise you I will SHOW you just how lazy I am and let someone else deal with your laziness, rudeness and other problems, don't think I won't- because I can tell you there are many days I would much rather it be just me in this house--but I have loved you your whole life and will not give up now... If you can find someone else willing to go farther for you than I will- please pack up and move there. Don't call me, write me or worry about me...go. NOW! And, do not think I plan on letting you come back here.
I have never had a kid want to leave, or take the various venues to go- they know how good they have it (of course I love kids so I am into taking them to all their activities, helping with school work, teaching them to cook and things like that...)
Mind you, I was a single mother by 23- and raising not just my own- but the 15 year old, the 12 year old, and sporadic kids around all the time- because everyone loves the kids being at my house they have fun- and are still well trained! lol.
I have had my baby scrub floors with itty-bitty pieces of cut up sponges to teach him not to pee on the floor (the small sponge is like 1 inchx 1 inch- because it is harder to work with- he isn't really going to get it clean anyway- it is more for effect that size sponge looking at the bathroom floor is enough to make me cry!)- he was 5 then, and insisted that peeing on the bathroom floor was his destiny- NO MATTER WHAT!- he sure stopped fast after cleaning the floor with that sponge!
I am a strong believer that punishment should fit the crime- and in that I am untraditional- I don't wash out mouths with soap, I don't hit kids, I don't starve or neglect them... I am a softy for them- I hurt when they do. I believe if they say ugly things back to themselves in a mirror- they SEE how ugly or stupid it is to call names, if they get a punishment fitting to what they have done- THEY REMEMBER!
And if they want to sneak out of the house- oh, that would just be too much fun for me- I would spend the next week preparing for them to do so- I would buy new locks for all the windows and doors, and CHANGE THEM! Boy, that would shock you- and leave a note on the door for them if one of my windows is broken that I will call the police to arrest them for vandalism to my property when I return, they do not live here so going inside is considered breaking and entering- if they would like to discuss living here they may call me or wait at the door until I return- however, at this time I have locked and bolted my home for my own safety and that of my family. It is kind of sick, but healthy my kids would believe that I would call the cops on them (not that I would in a million years)- I leave them thinking I am a little nuts- so I might. I toss rooms that aren't clean enough (usually I do this about once every 6 months- have to keep the dream going for them! lol) if drawers aren't organized I will pull them all out dump them in the middle of the floor and let them do it again. Beds are made or I pull the sheets off dump them and in the process turn the mattress over.
If clothes don't make it in the hamper- I have been known to send dirty underwear in the bottom of bookbags, dishes will be done- or I will take a pot of soapy water and dishes (nothing breakable and dump it in the middle of the bed (I use plastic covers on beds still just for this reason-and NEVER put too much soapy water in there, because it will ruin the floors.) Just let them be sitting in the room while I am working and I will march in without saying a word and start having fun... It really isn't fun, but--again, I let them believe I am enjoying this- so they feel like I am crazy enough to go through with whatever I say. I tell my kids when they talk about other kids going to boot camps and such- I wouldn't give someone else the pleasure of abusing them, I enjoy dumping things and fixing their problems too much! Yes, my kids really BELIEVE I am nuts.
I am always complimented on how well trained they are, and how helpful they are in other homes though. My kids would die if I ever sent them anywhere for more than a day- they are flat spoiled rotten. They have everything they ever dream of and more- I will find a way to give them everything they want (but, Mom giveth and Mom taketh away also!)
I laugh a lot WITH my kids, we joke a lot and we have a way of discussing everything- I know my kids as their friend, and they know me as their friend- but there is a very fine line they hate when they step on with me.
Sorry this is long- maybe it will give you a few ideas. Good luck! :smile9:

[cpnqn]

as far as siblings go- mine KNOW that they are each others best friend in the whole world- if the older one wanted to mistreat the younger one- I would force him to spend a day in their world something really dorky like going to Chuckee cheese and spending the day doing whatever they want to do- no coins for him- he would have to beg them off of the other, which wouldn't want to give them unless he could play too- but all the while preaching that the younger wants to be their friend and loves them no matter what they do to them- they worship the older kids, and want to be just like them. But, one day of being a 'kid' with them and missing their events (skating rink, skate parks, etc.) and they end all problems.
I want to emphasize though- my kids each has different things they do Cub scouts, skating, shopping, they all have certain things they expect on certain days and times- so them missing out to be a baby really hurts. Also, my kids are never anywhere without me- the 15 year old MIGHT get to go off on his own for an hour or so at the mall if we are traveling somewhere to look around but with strict orders on what they may and may not do... He is 18 now, so I get to go shoot pool with him, and go to the movies with him- we have fun. I would like to let go and just let him go out with a bunch of kids, but I want to be sure he is safe- and my job isn't over until he is done. He does go to work on his own, and once in a while for 'planned events' he is on his own- but just for events- not permanently. Just enough space to be an individual- but, also enough time with me and my now husband to know we love them. VACATION is a good thing for ALL of us too.

[zodiaclady05]

This is coming from a bit of experience. What if you spent some time just focusing on what a wonderful kid he is. Everyone has something that is wonderful about them. For example, perhaps you could make a scrapbook for him that is all about how much you love him and everything you find special about him. Or write him a letter letting him know the joy that he's brought to your life. Or you could just start out doing simple things like bragging about him in front of your friends. Make sure to let him know just how much you love him no matter how much he resists it. Sometimes these kids get used to being bad and make that their identity. But if you turn it around on him and just start focusing on how wonderful he is...maybe that will stun him. By the way research shows teen boot camps are ineffective-the results do not last. Getting him involved in the juvenile system will make involvement with the legal system a "normal" part of life he might incorporate into his adult life because he's used to it.