I Will Not Forget

[Txsweeper]

I received this e-mail, no I didn't check the sources, because I could care less who first wrote it. It says it all.


I sat in a movie theater watching "Schindler's List," asked myself, "Why didn't the Jews fight back?"

Now I know why.

I sat in a movie theater, watching "Pearl Harbor" and asked myself, "Why weren't we prepared?"

Now I know why.

Civilized people cannot fathom, much less predict, the actions of evil people

On September 11, dozens of capable airplane passengers allowed themselves to be overpowered by a handful of poorly armed terrorists because they did not comprehend the depth of hatred that motivated their captors.

On September 11, thousands of innocent people were murdered because too many Americans naively reject the reality that some nations are dedicated to the dominance of others. Many political pundits, pacifists and media personnel want us to forget the carnage. They say we must focus on the bravery of the rescuers and ignore the cowardice of the killers. They implore us to understand the motivation of the perpetrators. Major television stations have announced they will assist the healing process by not replaying devastating footage of the planes crashing into the Twin Towers.

I will not be manipulated.

I will not pretend to understand.

I will not forget.

I will not forget the liberal media who abused freedom of the press to kick our country when it was vulnerable and hurting.

I will not forget that CBS anchor Dan Rather preceded President Bush's address to the nation with the snide remark, "No matter how you feel about him, he is still our president."

I will not forget that ABC TV anchor Peter Jennings questioned President Bush's motives for not returning immediately to Washington, DC and commented, "We're all pretty skeptical and cynical about Washington."

And I will not forget that ABC's Mark Halperin warned if reporters weren't informed of every little detail of this war, they aren't "likely -- nor should they be expected -- to show deference."

I will not isolate myself from my fellow Americans by pretending an attack on the USS Cole in Yemen was not an attack on the United States of America.

I will not forget the Clinton administration equipped Islamic terrorists and their supporters with the world's most sophisticated telecommunications equipment and encryption technology, thereby compromising America's ability to trace terrorist radio, cell phone, land lines, faxes and modem communications.

I will not be appeased with pointless, quick retaliatory strikes like those perfected by the previous administration.

I will not be comforted by "feel-good, do nothing" regulations like the silly, "Have your bags been under your control?" question at the airport.

I will not be influenced by so called,"antiwar demonstrators" who exploit the right of ___expression to chant anti-American obscenities.

I will not forget the moral victory handed the North Vietnamese by American war protesters who reviled and spat upon the returning soldiers, airmen, sailors and marines.

I will not be softened by the wishful thinking of pacifists who chose reassurance over reality.

I will embrace the wise words of Prime Minister Tony Blair who told the Labor Party conference, "They have no moral inhibition on the slaughter of the innocent. If they could have murdered not 7,000 but 70,000, does anyone doubt they would have done so and rejoiced in it?

There is no compromise possible with such people, no meeting of minds, no point of understanding with such terror. Just a choice: defeat it or be
defeated by it. And defeat it we must!"

I will force myself to:

-hear the weeping
-feel the helplessness
-imagine the terror
-sense the panic
-smell the burning flesh
- experience the loss
- remember the hatred.

I sat in a movie theater, watching "Private Ryan" and asked myself, "Where did they find the courage?"

Now I know.

We have no choice. Living without liberty is not living.

-- Ed Evans, MGySgt., USMC (Ret.)
Not as lean, Not as mean, But still a Marine.

[DrJohn]

Very moving post,Txsweeper.

This "callous" Democrat can't help but wonder how much money Cheney (halliburton, sp?) made selling stuff to the terorist-supporting countries...

Hmmmmmm..I wonder how much he's making now from his illegal business dealings?

[Txsweeper]

Very moving post,Txsweeper.

This "callous" Democrat can't help but wonder how much money Cheney (halliburton, sp?) made selling stuff to the terorist-supporting countries...

Hmmmmmm..I wonder how much he's making now from his illegal business dealings?


Quite honestly, I'm sure you have a good point. I have heard many rumors about Dick Cheney's overseas dealings, but I am not up-to-date on what they are.

Is there such a thing as a non-callous Democrat? :laugh:

[advantage2000]

Quite honestly, I'm sure you have a good point. I have heard many rumors about Dick Cheney's overseas dealings, but I am not up-to-date on what they are.

Is there such a thing as a non-callous Democrat? :laugh:

You mean to tell me that the Rich-man's party, the party of "trickle-down economics" and "work-fare" is going to accuse the Party of the People of being callous? That's ironic.

[advantage2000]

...and I think if I hear another person accuse the 9/11 bombers of being cowardly, I think I will PUKE.

[c1986goose]

Hoorah! SEMPER FI! Way to go Top Evans. Like you I am not as lean, still as mean and a former U.S. Marine. Live it and love it! My sentiments exactly and thank you Txsweeper for posting them. Goose

[Veuve-Cliquot]

A bunch of bizarre and incoherent ramblings, if you ask me.

[c1986goose]

No one asked you.

[chaucerlegend]

I agree, no one asked you. Veuve-Cliquot: When you make a comment like that, remember that there are thousands of people you hate who died to give you the freedom to make that comment.

Both my parents served during Veitnam and if I hear another anti war coward say "We want our own vietnam" i will vomit. Yes, I heard that and I still hear it. My parents talk about being spat upon, some soldiers not being able to get jobs when they came back, being harrassed, etc.

War is part of our lives on this earth. Peace will never happen because there are selfish human beings on this earth. That's life.

[jenninshelby]

...and I think if I hear another person accuse the 9/11 bombers of being cowardly, I think I will PUKE.


Me too! You can say a lot of things about those as*holes who did that but I really do not think "cowardly" fits. No coward would take those kinds of actions. They would be too scared. I will not even start on your comments about the crappy trickle down theory that does Not work! lol.. What was Ronnie thinking when he thought that if you make rich folks richer that it would somehow "trickle" down to the poor folks? :rolleyes:

[Veuve-Cliquot]

I agree, no one asked you. Veuve-Cliquot: When you make a comment like that, remember that there are thousands of people you hate who died to give you the freedom to make that comment.

Speaking of bizarre and incoherent ramblings...

"thousands of people you hate"... I can't even begin to imagine what that means.

To get back to the subject, I found the email Txsweeper posted very odd. Network news = BAD! Hollywood movies = GOOD! And I agree with Advantage and Jenninshelby that the use of the word "cowards" to describe those terrorists is bizarre. And the fact that he wants to "smell burning flesh" scares me. How that constitutes "hate" on my part, I have no idea.

Mr. Evans says "They implore us to understand the motivation of the perpetrators," as if this were a bad thing. I'm not suggesting compassion for terrorism, but it certainly seems to me that if you want to put an end to terrorism, understanding the motivation of the terrorists would be one of the first things you should know.

Txsweeper, we're often at odds on issues. Let me state categorically that I don't think you are stupid, nor do I think your opinions are invalid. (In fact, I'm finding your views on the religion thread downright fascinating.) But I disagree with your sentiment that this email you posted "says it all." To me, it reads like the lunatic ramblings of an angry madman.

[Hhhyyyddd]

Well, perhaps no one asked me either, but the bizarre and incoherent speech was posted on a message board, awaiting commentary...

[dandylin]

Speaking of bizarre and incoherent ramblings...

"thousands of people you hate"... I can't even begin to imagine what that means.

To get back to the subject, I found the email Txsweeper posted very odd. Network news = BAD! Hollywood movies = GOOD! And I agree with Advantage and Jenninshelby that the use of the word "cowards" to describe those terrorists is bizarre. And the fact that he wants to "smell burning flesh" scares me. How that constitutes "hate" on my part, I have no idea.

Mr. Evans says "They implore us to understand the motivation of the perpetrators," as if this were a bad thing. I'm not suggesting compassion for terrorism, but it certainly seems to me that if you want to put an end to terrorism, understanding the motivation of the terrorists would be one of the first things you should know.

Txsweeper, we're often at odds on issues. Let me state categorically that I don't think you are stupid, nor do I think your opinions are invalid. (In fact, I'm finding your views on the religion thread downright fascinating.) But I disagree with your sentiment that this email you posted "says it all." To me, it reads like the lunatic ramblings of an angry madman.


I must say that I am truly impressed with your sentiments, I have been trying without much success, for months, to find a way to say exactly what you did in a few short paragraphs. Thanks for the coherent, intelligent and thoughtful response.

I would like to add that in Iraq, no one is fighting for our freedom. If one wanted to catch terrorists, it would seem Saudi Arabia might be a good place to start. Though I think understanding the motivation and what policies we have implemented in the region that might have made some feel that terrorist acts were their only defense, might be a step in the right direction. Terrorist acts are never acceptable, but trying to understand what would drive someone to the extreme cannot be anything but helpful.

I also don't feel that having served in the military gives one anymore clout or insight into world situations, it, as a matter of fact, might give a more tainted, one-sided view. Those in the military are taught to obey, not necessarily to question.

[Txsweeper]

Txsweeper, we're often at odds on issues. Let me state categorically that I don't think you are stupid, nor do I think your opinions are invalid. (In fact, I'm finding your views on the religion thread downright fascinating.) But I disagree with your sentiment that this email you posted "says it all." To me, it reads like the lunatic ramblings of an angry madman.

I didn't personally "write" the letter, nor do I know Ed Evans, MGySgt., USMC (Ret.). He had a message, whether it "reads" well to others or not, and I passed the message on. Not everyone is as talented with words as some would wish.

He touched a nerve. Good for him. We need more people on both sides of the fence touching nerves.

Edit: I forgot to say something, surprise :laugh: !!! V-C: I'm much more balanced and clear-headed on religious issues because I'm a pretty tolerant person and enjoy the "history" aspect of religions, then I am on Political issues, which tend to bore me to no end!!

[carogonza]

II would like to add that in Iraq, no one is fighting for our freedom. If one wanted to catch terrorists, it would seem Saudi Arabia might be a good place to start.



Amen to that. But we won't go after the Saudi's because the administration has ties with them. We seem to turn a blind eye to things when they do not suit the personal and financial interests of the Bushies.

[pattyepye]

Civilized people cannot fathom, much less predict, the actions of evil people

On September 11, dozens of capable airplane passengers allowed themselves to be overpowered by a handful of poorly armed terrorists because they did not comprehend the depth of hatred that motivated their captors.

On September 11, thousands of innocent people were murdered because too many Americans naively reject the reality that some nations are dedicated to the dominance of others.

I will not forget.


[/I]

I will not forget that our president was warned in a briefing that terrorists were seeking an attack on the soil of our country.

I will not forget that our president chose not to heed those warnings or to prioritize the information, the work of two agencies and over 70 agents.

I will not forget that our president still wishes to send more troops into harm's way.

I will not forget, and hope that others will remember, especially in November.

[Veuve-Cliquot]

I didn't personally "write" the letter, nor do I know Ed Evans, MGySgt., USMC (Ret.). He had a message, whether it "reads" well to others or not, and I passed the message on. Not everyone is as talented with words as some would wish.

He touched a nerve. Good for him. We need more people on both sides of the fence touching nerves.

I disagree again. And I'm not attacking Mr. Evans for his lack of writing ability.

What I loathe is his using his status as a retired Marine Sargent and his flag-waving, psuedo-patriotic style to inflame and inspire people to believe his own petty personal grudges against the news media and democrats in general.

[Txsweeper]

I disagree again. And I'm not attacking Mr. Evans for his lack of writing ability.

What I loathe is his using his status as a retired Marine Sargent and his flag-waving, psuedo-patriotic style to inflame and inspire people to believe his own petty personal grudges against the news media and democrats in general.

The beauty of being an American and having the right of free speech. Whether you're a clerk at Wal-mart or a retired Marine, you have the right to address your opinion. God Bless America. (Sorry, that's probably in a different link)

[c1986goose]

I disagree again. And I'm not attacking Mr. Evans for his lack of writing ability.

What I loathe is his using his status as a retired Marine Sargent and his flag-waving, psuedo-patriotic style to inflame and inspire people to believe his own petty personal grudges against the news media and democrats in general.

V-C, what I loathe is people like you that cannot spell Sergeant. A person that reaches the top rank of Master Gunnery Sergeant in the U.S.M.C. is as close to God as you can get. (In the Corps). He is entitled to wave his flag and I do not believe that it is a fake patriotic style. People like him and countless others have served and died for this country, so a person like you can type crap on a keyboard. If I were at the pugilist course on Parris Island again, I would love to have you as my opponent. Oh joy, joy joy!!!

SEMPER FI....DO OR DIE!!!! Goose

[Txsweeper]

SEMPER FI....DO OR DIE!!!! Goose


:cheer: :cheer:

If I could find a smilie that would salute you, I would have posted it!

[Veuve-Cliquot]

If I were at the pugilist course on Parris Island again, I would love to have you as my opponent. Oh joy, joy joy!!!



Because he that cannot debate with his mind always resorts to his fists. Go ahead, beat me up, big man.

[dandylin]

I find the use of one's military or former military status as a form of credibility on any given subject, especially politics, distasteful. While having served in the military is a worthy and noble deed, it does not give one any more insight into world situations or politics than say... the well-read clerk at Walmart.

But it seems that I often receive regurgitated emails written by a gnarled vet and because he served in Vietnam, I'm supposed to believe wholeheartedly in what he says. That's just silly.

[yadgirl]

I think I found the source (or one of the sources) of this one:
http://www.torontofreepress.com/archives/2002/main82602.htm

[cowleyh]

I find the use of one's military or former military status as a form of credibility on any given subject, especially politics, distasteful. While having served in the military is a worthy and noble deed, it does not give one any more insight into world situations or politics than say... the well-read clerk at Walmart.


Actually, having worked in a military environment, I can tell you that even a well-read clerk at Walmart doesn't know half of what's really going on in the world today. Tons of information on military bases, in the Pentagon and on Capital Hill is classified and/or top secret. As regular citizens, you and I will never see it. And that's probably a good thing. Just seeing a small portion might send some citizens over the edge... However, those who are serving or have served in the military (or FBI, CIA, etc) are the ones out there in the world. They are out there making decisions based on that secret info. The media doesn't get to report it all.

[advantage2000]

Because he that cannot debate with his mind always resorts to his fists. Go ahead, beat me up, big man.

YO! This man rose to the ranks of Gunny Sarge so he could have the right to beat the cr@p out of American citizens! :laugh:

[dandylin]

Actually, having worked in a military environment, I can tell you that even a well-read clerk at Walmart doesn't know half of what's really going on in the world today. Tons of information on military bases, in the Pentagon and on Capital Hill is classified and/or top secret. As regular citizens, you and I will never see it. And that's probably a good thing. Just seeing a small portion might send some citizens over the edge... However, those who are serving or have served in the military (or FBI, CIA, etc) are the ones out there in the world. They are out there making decisions based on that secret info. The media doesn't get to report it all.

No, can't agree there. The enlisted (which is most of the population) know nothing of why they are where they are. They are following orders. They could not possibly be privvy to "top secret" information. And...those (general population) I would place a hefty bet, are the people writing the "I Will Not Forget" type poems

It's incredibly dangerous to place such prestige on the military. In the last 20 years or so we have begun idolizing all things "military" and that is not wise. The Armed Services are a branch of government, not the entire government. When military personnel are in place, a good portion of the time, what you are going to get is war. And it's not their children who are going to be dying, like right now. It's going to be ours.

And might I add, the view that those who are in a position to know, means next to nothing outside the military complex. They know "our" side, not the whole, big, wide picture.

[cowleyh]

MSgt and above are not regular enlisted; they are senior NCO or non-commissioned officer (at least in Air Force ranking)... Some, but not all, are a little more privvy to class/ts info.

Also, when disasters occur in the U.S., the military is usually dispatched to help with many things. It was true with the OKC bombing (I was there), and it was true with 9-11. They get up close and personal with some pretty disturbing things, and sadly, burning flesh is probably one of them. It is probably one of the things he will never forget, thus the reason for putting it in something like this.

Personally, I'm not going to judge the person who wrote it. He is obviously pissed off about what happened here (who wasn't that day?). And knowing that if you are in the military long enough to reach anything resembling 'master,' he hasn't been allowed to speak his mind as a member of the military for several years... Why not at least when he retires? He's proud of his service.

[Txsweeper]

No, can't agree there. The enlisted (which is most of the population) know nothing of why they are where they are. They are following orders. They could not possibly be privvy to "top secret" information. And...those (general population) I would place a hefty bet, are the people writing the "I Will Not Forget" type poems

It's incredibly dangerous to place such prestige on the military. In the last 20 years or so we have begun idolizing all things "military" and that is not wise. The Armed Services are a branch of government, not the entire government. When military personnel are in place, a good portion of the time, what you are going to get is war. And it's not their children who are going to be dying, like right now. It's going to be ours.

And might I add, the view that those who are in a position to know, means next to nothing outside the military complex. They know "our" side, not the whole, big, wide picture.

My father, retired MSgt, U.S. Army would have to disagree with you and you know what...he EARNED that right! I give the HIGHEST prestige on the military, as do centuries of Americans before me. You say it's only been the last 20 years or so we began idolizing all things military. Where have you been? Haven't see The Alamo yet? The military has been around since the dawn of time, I won't get into the Bible versions here, and Man has been idolizing it's conquests and loses every since.

No one person has the right to take away from a military member what they have EARNED. John Kerry is just the man to do that :frown3:

[dandylin]

My father, retired MSgt, U.S. Army would have to disagree with you and you know what...he EARNED that right! I give the HIGHEST prestige on the military, as do centuries of Americans before me. You say it's only been the last 20 years or so we began idolizing all things military. Where have you been? Haven't see The Alamo yet? The military has been around since the dawn of time, I won't get into the Bible versions here, and Man has been idolizing it's conquests and loses every since.

No one person has the right to take away from a military member what they have EARNED. John Kerry is just the man to do that :frown3:


Well, my father, who served also, as a Chief Petty Officer in the U.S. Navy during WWII and Korea, would disagree with your father. Under normal circumstances, I don't feel the need to point that out, nor did he use his service to qualify every statement he made that might not be popular nor did he use it as a shield from critisism..

And yes, the "military complex" has been around for centuries, the beginning of time even, but worship, in this country, at this moment, is at an all time high. And just because something "is" does not make it right, correct or exempt from scrutiny.


You are certainly welcome to give the highest prestige to the military, serving is a noble cause, and I will not take that from the men and women who do, I will however, not bestow upon them a higher status as a citizen. We are all equals, or so I thought.

[yadgirl]

I think it's kinda of like any service job - Some people work to help others, and some just want the glory that comes with the job.

yad

[goodxxxgirl]

A bunch of bizarre and incoherent ramblings, if you ask me.

oh i am NOT even going there on this one vc!!!!!!

[c1986goose]

I find the use of one's military or former military status as a form of credibility on any given subject, especially politics, distasteful. While having served in the military is a worthy and noble deed, it does not give one any more insight into world situations or politics than say... the well-read clerk at Walmart.

But it seems that I often receive regurgitated emails written by a gnarled vet and because he served in Vietnam, I'm supposed to believe wholeheartedly in what he says. That's just silly.


The above comment came from dandylin. You could say that this applies to John Kerry, especially the first paragraph.

dandylin,
You are right. You do not have to wholeheartedly believe what we vets say. That doesn't mean that we haven't earned the right to speak our opinions, if you like them or not. People like your father, myself and millions more endangered their lives so that you could sit at a keyboard and type anything that you want to. Goose.

[cowleyh]

You could say that this applies to John Kerry, especially the first paragraph.


huh. you're right. i didn't even think of that... of course, i guess it only applies when you disagree with the politics of the person saying it.

[dandylin]

I find the use of one's military or former military status as a form of credibility on any given subject, especially politics, distasteful. While having served in the military is a worthy and noble deed, it does not give one any more insight into world situations or politics than say... the well-read clerk at Walmart.

But it seems that I often receive regurgitated emails written by a gnarled vet and because he served in Vietnam, I'm supposed to believe wholeheartedly in what he says. That's just silly.


The above comment came from dandylin. You could say that this applies to John Kerry, especially the first paragraph.

dandylin,
You are right. You do not have to wholeheartedly believe what we vets say. That doesn't mean that we haven't earned the right to speak our opinions, if you like them or not. People like your father, myself and millions more endangered their lives so that you could sit at a keyboard and type anything that you want to. Goose.

You reiterate exactly what I said.

The "we fought for your freedom" line is growing thin. I hear it as an argument everytime I speak to a vet from every war post Korea Why do you think that is, I'm curious as to the answer. Yes, I appreciate that you joined the military, no I don't think that in the last few wars that anyone was fighting for my freedom. Oil maybe, convoluted ideas, yes, but my freedom, no.

As far as earning the rights to your opinions, yes, but not any more than anyone else. I have served my country in many capacities in my lifetime, because supporting the military industrial complex was not one of them, makes no difference, service is service and you are not any more deserving of an ear than I.

And yes, it would apply to Kerry also. I don't recall excluding anyone.

[c1986goose]

dandylin,

Did you just come out of a coma, or something. You say that we did not fight for your freedom post Korea? Undoubtably you forgot about the Russians and Chinese that were trying to take over this country thru wars fought in other countries. I see that you were born in 1963. You were only 16 when the Berlin Wall fell. You should have grown up in the 50's and 60's as a child when you had to hide under the desks at school because of the drills of nuclear attacks. You were probably taught in school by the draft dodging hippies that went on to become teachers. Their liberal view have become prominent in schools, as they reach positions of power and can change the text in the History books that you read.

Every war has been fought for something. Japan fought us because they needed resources, such as oil. Same for Germany. We fought North Korea because they attacked South Korea and overran them. We were protecting them. We did the same in Viet Nam. Only recently, the Gulf Wars, has it been said that the U.S. fought for oil. The U.S. has fought to help an ally that did not have the resources, or man power that we have.

I do not know what your problem is. It sounds like you do not care for the military in any form or fashion. Go to another country and speak about them the way you do about the U.S. They would not like that and would probably make sure you did not say it again.
You ought to be thankful that you live in this great country. If it were not for the military, you would be speaking a foreign language right now.

[yadgirl]

Anyone in the service industry, no matter what his job, is performing a duty for people. Maybe it's fighting for freedom, maybe it's fighting for health, maybe it's serving up hamburgers at McDonald's. I don't see that there's much difference in in those jobs as long as the people do what they do with reverence.

Maybe you can read this and see what I mean
http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.1.one.html

yad

[dandylin]

dandylin,

Did you just come out of a coma, or something. You say that we did not fight for your freedom post Korea? Undoubtably you forgot about the Russians and Chinese that were trying to take over this country thru wars fought in other countries. I see that you were born in 1963. You were only 16 when the Berlin Wall fell. You should have grown up in the 50's and 60's as a child when you had to hide under the desks at school because of the drills of nuclear attacks. You were probably taught in school by the draft dodging hippies that went on to become teachers. Their liberal view have become prominent in schools, as they reach positions of power and can change the text in the History books that you read.

Every war has been fought for something. Japan fought us because they needed resources, such as oil. Same for Germany. We fought North Korea because they attacked South Korea and overran them. We were protecting them. We did the same in Viet Nam. Only recently, the Gulf Wars, has it been said that the U.S. fought for oil. The U.S. has fought to help an ally that did not have the resources, or man power that we have.

I do not know what your problem is. It sounds like you do not care for the military in any form or fashion. Go to another country and speak about them the way you do about the U.S. They would not like that and would probably make sure you did not say it again.
You ought to be thankful that you live in this great country. If it were not for the military, you would be speaking a foreign language right now.

Yawn, another original post!

[Defenderofthefaith]

That was a good post TXSweeper and it's a real shame that some people in this country do not understand what Pres Bush is doing. He is defending freedom and America as is the military under his command. America did not instigate this war, Hussein and Bin Laden and the terrrorists did. Clinton knew but did nothing--he was too busy fornicating to take his job seriously. All Kerry does is sling mud but he has no integrity or leadership abilities. I would never even consider voting for him. If Kerry gets elected, America will fall. Rome thought they were invincible but they weren't. If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything...I stand for moral absolutes and strong leadership. I hate when people speak disrespectfully of Mr Bush--like he's some illiterate fool. He knows what is going on and is doing his best to lead this country. I feel he has done a great job . I have only the utmost respect for him, Mrs. Bush and my country. God Bless America.

[pattyepye]

America did not instigate this war, Hussein and Bin Laden and the terrrorists did.

I watched the whole series of BAND OF BROTHERS with my DH (again). And though Saddam Hussein is a horrible tyrant, his own people received the brunt of his evil. Now you take someone like Adolph Hitler, and he attempts to take over all of Europe, that lissajean is instigating a war.

And though we need to protect our shores, and stop the infiltration of terrorists, we have become the aggressor bulllies that so much of the world finds offensive. We are loosing footing with the UN as Spain and Japan are removing their forces from Iraq.

"If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything" Hmmmmmm sounds like there's a good country song in there. Oh sorry, it's already taken.



.

[Txsweeper]

And though Saddam Hussein is a horrible tyrant, his own people received the brunt of his evil. Now you take someone like Adolph Hitler, and he attempts to take over all of Europe, that lissajean is instigating a war.


I can't measure tyrancy by the amount of people who are abused or the amount of land one tries to conquer. A tyrant is a tyrant is a tyrant.........If you turn your back, your enemy will stab you.

[pechuna]

Clinton tried diplomatic measures and help from the U.N. after the 1993 WTC bombing. I commend him for the effort as no one wants war. However, diplomacy doesn't always work.
Then you have to kill the enemy.

[pattyepye]

I can't measure tyrancy by the amount of people who are abused or the amount of land one tries to conquer. A tyrant is a tyrant is a tyrant.........If you turn your back, your enemy will stab you.


The point being made comparing Saddam to Hitler was to illustrate the aggressor quality.
And as previously mentioned in the threads, there are tyrant leaders in countries throughout the world, and apparantly they hold little significance as we have not invaded their countries.

[NHGrits]

AS A "a gnarled vet who was one of the last of the WACS" I guess I can talk some craps about serving in the Military. It really p's me off how people dishonor the military dead by declaring their deaths wastes or they died for lies. That is dishonorable to them. I hated when people said "Why doesn't Bush show the bodies coming back?" Sorry folks, I didn't decide to risk my life by joining the Army for you to flash my casket coming home to the country I died for and use it to push the "Anybody but Bush" philosophy. We who have been in the Military were willing to take the chance in sacrificing our lives for faith in our country, continued freedom for our countrymen, against all enemies (even those you want to "understand"). (Which remindes me, I talked to someone who study the thinking of terrorists, there is no reasoning with them, they live, breath and are rewarded for hatred and killing. Our way of life is what they hate) Some of you don't even want to sacrifice getting searched at the airport because it violates your civil rights. "DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY"

[cowleyh]

AS A "a gnarled vet who was one of the last of the WACS" I guess I can talk some craps about serving in the Military. It really p's me off how people dishonor the military dead by declaring their deaths wastes or they died for lies. That is dishonorable to them. I hated when people said "Why doesn't Bush show the bodies coming back?" Sorry folks, I didn't decide to risk my life by joining the Army for you to flash my casket coming home to the country I died for and use it to push the "Anybody but Bush" philosophy. We who have been in the Military were willing to take the chance in sacrificing our lives for faith in our country, continued freedom for our countrymen, against all enemies (even those you want to "understand"). (Which remindes me, I talked to someone who study the thinking of terrorists, there is no reasoning with them, they live, breath and are rewarded for hatred and killing. Our way of life is what they hate) Some of you don't even want to sacrifice getting searched at the airport because it violates your civil rights. "DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY"

hear, hear! :cheer4:


btw, i thought i would provide the definition of hear, hear for you...here:
It is an abbreviation for "hear, all ye good people, hear what this brilliant and eloquent speaker has to say!"
learn something new every day! it's fun!

[Txsweeper]

AS A "a gnarled vet who was one of the last of the WACS" I guess I can talk some craps about serving in the Military. It really p's me off how people dishonor the military dead by declaring their deaths wastes or they died for lies. That is dishonorable to them. I hated when people said "Why doesn't Bush show the bodies coming back?" Sorry folks, I didn't decide to risk my life by joining the Army for you to flash my casket coming home to the country I died for and use it to push the "Anybody but Bush" philosophy. We who have been in the Military were willing to take the chance in sacrificing our lives for faith in our country, continued freedom for our countrymen, against all enemies (even those you want to "understand"). (Which remindes me, I talked to someone who study the thinking of terrorists, there is no reasoning with them, they live, breath and are rewarded for hatred and killing. Our way of life is what they hate) Some of you don't even want to sacrifice getting searched at the airport because it violates your civil rights. "DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY"


Well said and thank you for serving our country, it was not in vain.

[MrDave]

Actually, having worked in a military environment, I can tell you that even a well-read clerk at Walmart doesn't know half of what's really going on in the world today. Tons of information on military bases, in the Pentagon and on Capital Hill is classified and/or top secret. As regular citizens, you and I will never see it. And that's probably a good thing. Just seeing a small portion might send some citizens over the edge... However, those who are serving or have served in the military (or FBI, CIA, etc) are the ones out there in the world. They are out there making decisions based on that secret info. The media doesn't get to report it all.

Whether this is true or not, we have the freedom to speak our minds and make decisions based upon what we know. To place such faith in the millitary and alternately dismiss the views of those outside of the millitary based upon being in the know is dangerous in the long run.

With the 9/11 commission, I think we are witnessing a lot of the "secret info" coming to light and it isn't nearly as persuasive as the administration has led us to believe.

There is always room for discussion, and I don't care if you work for Wal Mart of are a 5 star general. There will be different levels of knowledge, to be sure, but there are also very subjective decision making processes at all levels and bias enters into these decisions.

I would stay away from making the "we don't know any better" when discussing these ideas. I think the missing WMD are a prime example of this, because even I trusted the Bush administration on this one and they were wrong.

[MrDave]

Some of you don't even want to sacrifice getting searched at the airport because it violates your civil rights. "DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY"

You have to agree there are reasonable lines that can be drawn, don't you?

You keep mentioning that people have died for our freedom but then you dismiss concerns over civil rights. Civil rights = freedoms.

Some civil rights will be lost, sure. But reasonable measures should be in place - review processes, balance of power, quality assurance processes - that will protect civil liberties as much as possible to respect the lives of those who have died for them. As a soldier are you just fighting to kill terrorists or to protect the freedoms and way of life in our country?

[NHGrits]

Mrdave,
I was willing to give my life, make my children motherless, for my country, and yes, your civil rights. HOWEVER, we should all be willing to make some sacrifice for our country, our freedom and yes our civil rights not just those whom we send to fight the battles. And if that means allowing certian things, such as the Patriot Act, to be used as a tool for hunting out terrorist BEFORE the blow the heck out of our fellow countrymen, and BEFORE our military have to go and do battle, then perhaps, all of us, should invest some time thinking of the long term consequences for fighting and protesting "violation of civil rights" for everything. As a great man once said, "we can do for our country, and not what our country can do for us". The bottom line, we should all question things to get clarity, but we should also be willing to compromise for the good of our country. It's become a ME, ME, ME kinda world lately. Good thing our warriors in the field don't have that mentalilty.

[MrDave]

Mrdave,
I was willing to give my life, make my children motherless, for my country, and yes, your civil rights. HOWEVER, we should all be willing to make some sacrifice for our country, our freedom and yes our civil rights not just those whom we send to fight the battles. And if that means allowing certian things, such as the Patriot Act, to be used as a tool for hunting out terrorist BEFORE the blow the heck out of our fellow countrymen, and BEFORE our military have to go and do battle, then perhaps, all of us, should invest some time thinking of the long term consequences for fighting and protesting "violation of civil rights" for everything. As a great man once said, "we can do for our country, and not what our country can do for us". The bottom line, we should all question things to get clarity, but we should also be willing to compromise for the good of our country. It's become a ME, ME, ME kinda world lately. Good thing our warriors in the field don't have that mentalilty.

I appreciate the response because I was confused about how we need to sacrifice civil rights for our freedom - a paradox if I ever heard one.

My opinion is this - the more we whittle away our freedoms the more the terrorists win.

I think we "should invest some time thinking of the long term consequences" of removing civil rights and freedoms in our country, especially because we need to respect the lives of those who fought for these freedoms.

I agree with your bottom line: "The bottom line, we should all question things to get clarity, but we should also be willing to compromise for the good of our country."

The natural reaction after such devastating attacks is to clamp down and secure the country. Now is the time to seek clarity and insure the compromise does not destroy the civil liberties we take for granted, but also provides protections to our citizens. We need to stress intelligent action over action, and having an intelligent leader would be helpful in this endeavor.

I personally tried to apply to the FBI so I could use my database skills to help in the war on terror, but because I smoked pot more than 15 times in my lifetime I have no chance. I suppose the army would let me die for my country, but I can't use my intelligence to fight for my country. Grrr.

[dandylin]

Mrdave,
I was willing to give my life, make my children motherless, for my country, and yes, your civil rights. HOWEVER, we should all be willing to make some sacrifice for our country, our freedom and yes our civil rights not just those whom we send to fight the battles. And if that means allowing certian things, such as the Patriot Act, to be used as a tool for hunting out terrorist BEFORE the blow the heck out of our fellow countrymen, and BEFORE our military have to go and do battle, then perhaps, all of us, should invest some time thinking of the long term consequences for fighting and protesting "violation of civil rights" for everything. As a great man once said, "we can do for our country, and not what our country can do for us". The bottom line, we should all question things to get clarity, but we should also be willing to compromise for the good of our country. It's become a ME, ME, ME kinda world lately. Good thing our warriors in the field don't have that mentalilty.


Don't mean to butt in but...the last few sentences sound much like fascist propaganda. I don't mean to be disrespectful but here is a paragraph stating what fascism means in a nutshell.

The word fascism has come to mean any system of government resembling Mussolini's, that exalts nation and often race above the individual, and uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition, engages in severe economic and social regimentation, and espouses nationalism and sometimes racism (ethnic nationalism).

[Txsweeper]

There is no true measurement to take to know if the existing Patriot Act has saved American lives, except to look at countries that have little or no preventive measures in place, like Spain. I bet those people blown-up in Madrid wish they were protected by their government.

I would rather know that my civil rights were being infringed upon for my safety then think that my loved ones might be blown-up by extremists as they fly from one place to another.

That is my Personal opinion. I have nothing to hide and I don't mind waiting at the airport for hours to ensure my safety. I'm sorry that Mrs. Smith, the grandmother of five, had to be practically stripped searched to ensure that safety. If there weren't evil people on this earth, it wouldn't have to be this way.

Don't mean to butt in but...the last few sentences sound much like fascist propaganda. I don't mean to be disrespectful but here is a paragraph stating what fascism means in a nutshell.

That's appalling.

[NHGrits]

dandylin, sorry I don't follow your train of thought, and don't see how it equates to me. But thanks for your input.

mrdave,
wouldn't it be my civil right not to have my butt bombed in my own country. And if so, then perhaps we shouldn't tie the hands of those who are trying to hunt out the terrorists by crying it's a violation of civil rights to use the tactics needed to find them. I am specifically speaking of the Patriots Act. (and I know a thing about civil rights and their importance, especially when my black daughter gets stop regular by the police where she lives, for no reason.)

[MrDave]

There is no true measurement to take to know if the existing Patriot Act has saved American lives, except to look at countries that have little or no preventive measures in place, like Spain. I bet those people blown-up in Madrid wish they were protected by their government.

I would rather know that my civil rights were being infringed upon for my safety then think that my loved ones might be blown-up by extremists as they fly from one place to another.

That is my Personal opinion. I have nothing to hide and I don't mind waiting at the airport for hours to ensure my safety. I'm sorry that Mrs. Smith, the grandmother of five, had to be practically stripped searched to ensure that safety. If there weren't evil people on this earth, it wouldn't have to be this way.



That's appalling.

I agree that it does sound like facism. Sorry.

I'll bet that if we intelligently implemented security that granny might not have to suffer such indignity.

Well, I'm glad to hear that we are fine and dandy with moving toward a more totalitarian government as this is the most effective way to battle terrorists. If you restrict movement, freedom of speech, track your citizens, check everyone's papers as they go from place to place, demand people follow the governments orders without question or else, isolate the country, restrict what the media can report or just run the media - then we will be thousands of times safer and your loved ones will not be dead. They may not enjoy their lives as much, and may not be as proud to be Americans, but they wont be blown up by extremists.

I think everyone will agree this will solve a lot of issues surrounding providing safety for our citizens.

Oh - and if other countries just stop supporting the US then they wont be attacked either. That is much simpler.

[MrDave]

dandylin, sorry I don't follow your train of thought, and don't see how it equates to me. But thanks for your input.

mrdave,
wouldn't it be my civil right not to have my butt bombed in my own country. And if so, then perhaps we shouldn't tie the hands of those who are trying to hunt out the terrorists by crying it's a violation of civil rights to use the tactics needed to find them. I am specifically speaking of the Patriots Act. (and I know a thing about civil rights and their importance, especially when my black daughter gets stop regular by the police where she lives, for no reason.)

So, in your opinion, the hastily enacted Partiot Act is perfectly effective and in line with our democratic ideals.

I just don't see where you draw the line.

[Gomez]

Uh, explain to me how the 9/11 hijackers were cowardly? Pretty brave to do what they did. Also pretty evil and senseless, but still brave.

[dandylin]

[QUOTE=NHGrits]dandylin, sorry I don't follow your train of thought, and don't see how it equates to me. But thanks for your input.

No problem, happy to clarify

The bottom line, we should all question things to get clarity, but we should also be willing to compromise for the good of our country. It's become a ME, ME, ME kinda world lately. Good thing our warriors in the field don't have that mentalilty.

When you put "The Nation" above individual rights, you have a more fascist type governing body. In this country individual rights always come first.

[dandylin]

There is no true measurement to take to know if the existing Patriot Act has saved American lives, except to look at countries that have little or no preventive measures in place, like Spain. I bet those people blown-up in Madrid wish they were protected by their government.

I would rather know that my civil rights were being infringed upon for my safety then think that my loved ones might be blown-up by extremists as they fly from one place to another.

That is my Personal opinion. I have nothing to hide and I don't mind waiting at the airport for hours to ensure my safety. I'm sorry that Mrs. Smith, the grandmother of five, had to be practically stripped searched to ensure that safety. If there weren't evil people on this earth, it wouldn't have to be this way.



That's appalling.

Why is it appalling to point out a trend toward a very dangerous situation? When we don't point these things out or politely overlook them, that's when they escalate and we are left with a very big mess to clean up.

[Txsweeper]

http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

I'd never seen it, thought others might be interested in it as well.

[dandylin]

Thanks for the link, I looked at this a bit ago, but I'd like to re-read it.

[NHGrits]

Txsweeper,
hear, hear.

mrdave,
I'm with txsweeper. Gotta give a little, to live alot, sometimes.

Gomez,
Bravery is facing you enemy face to face. Bavery is given your enemy a fair fight. Cowardice is killing innocent victims who cannot fight you. Suicide is cowardice, you to afraid to fight and have another kill you, so you kill yourself. But its even more of a chicken poop who takes innocents with him.

[Txsweeper]

Why is it appalling to point out a trend toward a very dangerous situation? When we don't point these things out or politely overlook them, that's when they escalate and we are left with a very big mess to clean up.


I (obviously) don't think on the same level as some people and would never think of her comments as being facist in nature. I suppose it's just how the brain comprehends things. I guess I'm guilty of the same thing since I continually tell my kids that their "you owe me...me,me,me" attitude is wrong.

I found this:
Contemporary Fascist Propaganda (Horrific stuff; not for the squeamish)
Aryan Crusaders' Library
European Nationalist Movements Web Index
Fascist New World Order Web
"Up Front" magazine (sponsored by the Canadian White Nationalist Alliance)
Ku Klux Klan Manifesto
Stormfront White Nationalist Web Resource
Letters from the Front (Stormfront Fan Mail)
The White Power FAQ
Women for Aryan Unity Web Index
WWW White Nationalism Index

I'm sorry, nhgrits' statement does not fall into fascist propaganda.

[dandylin]

I (obviously) don't think on the same level as some people and would never think of her comments as being facist in nature. I suppose it's just how the brain comprehends things. I guess I'm guilty of the same thing since I continually tell my kids that their "you owe me...me,me,me" attitude is wrong.

Just trying to point out the Nationalism to the exclusion of Civil Liberties is a slippery slope.

[NHGrits]

Txsweeper,
That is exactly what I mean. My kids are the same. That and everything always has to be right now.

dandylin,
sorry, I still don't think that applies to what I mean or feel.

[dandylin]

I think the big point I've been trying to make is, is that this administration and their rhetoric has so many people so terrified of EVERYTHING.

The alerts change everytime the admins. takes some heat for something, the "president" talks about nothing but "danger" and "threats" and "vigilance". No wonder so many are willing to give up civil liberties.

It's caused such paranoia, I'm afraid that another Iraq is on the horizon and I think it's imperative for us to constantly and like little bulldogs, question every move this administration makes. Doing anyting less is just foolish.

[MrDave]

I think the big point I've been trying to make is, is that this administration and their rhetoric has so many people so terrified of EVERYTHING.

The alerts change everytime the admins. takes some heat for something, the "president" talks about nothing but "danger" and "threats" and "vigilance". No wonder so many are willing to give up civil liberties.

It's caused such paranoia, I'm afraid that another Iraq is on the horizon and I think it's imperative for us to constantly and like little bulldogs, question every move this administration makes. Doing anyting less is just foolish.


I wouldn't worry about another Iraq - we don't have any soldiers available to fight - unless we go to the draft.

Also, I realize we are far from a slippery slope, but setting limits allows us to move without going down one. A free societly will always be victim to terrorists. A totalitarian state is the safest when battling terrorists.

I get worried when people here are not willing to draw the line when I only propose we move intelligently and draw a line between safety and civil liberties instead of ignoring one side or the other.

[MrDave]

Uh, explain to me how the 9/11 hijackers were cowardly? Pretty brave to do what they did. Also pretty evil and senseless, but still brave.

Are people brainwashed by the promised of going straight to heaven brave?

[Txsweeper]

get worried when people here are not willing to draw the line when I only propose we move intelligently and draw a line between safety and civil liberties instead of ignoring one side or the other.

I can't speak for anyone here, but personally I'm not against relooking at the act and making needed adjustments. I'm just saying that, PERSONALLY, it has only effected me when I've gone to the airport. Can it affect me in other areas, maybe, but it hasn't.

How has it affected others? I don't really know, I'd have to do some research to learn what beefs others have personally been through to know. Then I can make a decision based on their stories. Otherwise, all I have to measure it on is my own PERSONAL situations.

[suelee000]

If the president can declare a citizen arrested in Chicago an "enemy combatant" based on secret information and the person arrested is hidden away with no right to any attornney or to confront his accusers in a court of law, is this still America?

If a person can be arrested and convicted based on information that was gathered illegally (without the search warrant REQUIRED by the Constitution) are we still free Americans?

If we can be stopped and searched merely because we are carrying a standard American reference book (almanac), are we still free Americans?

How can I be a free American, if I cannot support the political causes and charities that are not in favor of the current administration without being attacked as a traitor?

If we have no civil rights, how can we be free Americans?

Thosw currently in power have found it way too easy to claim safety is more important that being a free American.

[dandylin]

What I find most disturbing is the "feds" ability to look at my purchasing habits (bookstores especially) and my library records without my consent and without anyone being able to tell me that they are doing just that.

[cowleyh]

What I find most disturbing is the "feds" ability to look at my purchasing habits (bookstores especially) and my library records without my consent and without anyone being able to tell me that they are doing just that.

look at a lot of bomb-making books, do you? i'm sure they don't care what you read, as long as it isn't one of their 'red flag' books. i think you're just looking for reasons to be paranoid.

[MrDave]

I am still amazed at how little weight people give some very basic principles of freedom.

It is sad, and an indication that things are changing. I thank God we have some principled thinkers in the Courts who will protect the feedoms we just want to give away.

It may not happen in my lifetime, but with the terrorists winning the war it is inevitable.

[MrDave]

look at a lot of bomb-making books, do you?

Way to play nice.

[Txsweeper]

look at a lot of bomb-making books, do you? i'm sure they don't care what you read, as long as it isn't one of their 'red flag' books. i think you're just looking for reasons to be paranoid.

I love Larry Finkelstien from Darma and Greg (I know I've said it before) because of his constant fear of "Big Brother" watching his every move. He is very comical but also a reality that there are those out there that are terrified that freedoms are impaired because of what "could" happen.

It's already happening, has been since before 9/11. The Act is suppose to speed the process up so that the different agencies can intercept terrorists BEFORE they board a plane (for example) not afterwards. Everyone screams that our government knew about Al-Qaeda before 9/11 and didn't do enough to stop it, but when the governmental system is solid red tape and noone wants to share info with anyone else because they might step on toes, then bad people take are allowed to do their evil deeds.

I agree with MrDave that the Act, as written, needs fine tuning so as not to hurt innocent people. But until that day comes, I have no problem with any governmental agencies watching me and my actions. I'm a housewife, I'm not a terrorist.

[dandylin]

look at a lot of bomb-making books, do you? i'm sure they don't care what you read, as long as it isn't one of their 'red flag' books. i think you're just looking for reasons to be paranoid.

It's none of their business what I read, and you are missing the big picture. And it's really, really big!

[pattyepye]

Some very good points being made here. I personally feel there is a right wing self-righteous spin on life in our country, that makes it very unpopular to speak your mind. I have seen this in many areas and with many people. If you don't have their same fundamentalist religion, or speak their war hungry lingo, you might as well be an alien from a distant planet.

The freedoms are being questioned everyday. That "looking at bomb books" comment is indicative of this spin. Thankfully, other voices are speaking out.

[advantage2000]

look at a lot of bomb-making books, do you? i'm sure they don't care what you read, as long as it isn't one of their 'red flag' books. i think you're just looking for reasons to be paranoid.

Who defines "RED FLAG"? My red flag list is not your red flag list... the government's red flag list would probably scare me...

THAT's the scary part.

[MrDave]

I agree with MrDave that the Act, as written, needs fine tuning so as not to hurt innocent people. But until that day comes, I have no problem with any governmental agencies watching me and my actions. I'm a housewife, I'm not a terrorist.

Generally I do not have issue with some of this, but in Denver we recently had the police spying on people who attended certain protests and creating files on them, which has the tendancy of chilling free speech, which is not appropriate.

I recently purchased Mein Kamph, the Bush Dyslexicon and a CD of Arabic techno music. Am I on some surveilance list now? Are people monitoring my thoughts on this board?

In light of the "warnings" from Bush as to what you say, and the Attorney General who has only prosecuted one Civil Rights case for his whole tenure, and the recent abuses by law enforcement when restricting anti-war demonstrations or arresting demonstrators, detaining people on the No Fly list that have no reason being there, don't you think that this atmosphere is already changing? Can you see how this could restrict freedom of speech? How, if your point of view differs from the "government line" (nothing close to terrorist tendancies), you could be harrassed and your likelihood of being arrested is much higher?

My wife is an immigrant. Currently, in theory she could be detained indefinately without cause. I would not be able to see her or do anything for her, and she would be at the administration's whim as to if she would be treated well or ever released.

The history of politics and governments is not pretty. Our democracy is suppose to be better. It is supposed to allow for open processes and debate of ideas. It is supposed to allow for religious freedom. It is supposed to protect us from intrusive goverment and unreasonable punishment. Governments tend towards more restrictive and authoritarian policies over time, and as our democracy is very young, we should make it a priority to protect what makes our country great now, when it is at risk.

I am very seriously concerned that statements like "I'm a housewife, I'm not a terrorist." really dismiss the historical context and allow the terrorists to move their agenda forward by convincing our own citizens to give up freedoms at the core of our democracy.

[Veuve-Cliquot]

I'm a housewife, I'm not a terrorist.

The two aren't mutually exclusive: witness would-be presidential assassin Sarah Jane Moore, a housewife who became a terrorist.

And one could say that Patty Hearst was a terrorist who became a housewife.

Who knows what's in store for you, Txsweeper? :smile9:

[cowleyh]

The freedoms are being questioned everyday. That "looking at bomb books" comment is indicative of this spin. Thankfully, other voices are speaking out.

Well, it was supposed to be a joke, but it seems as though some of you didn't turn on your sense of humor switches today.

Personally, I would be interested in knowing what the red flag list contains. I'm pretty sure it isn't just the "self-righteous right wing" government employees, but the government as a whole, building the list.

Would I like to know if a 15-year-old is checking out numerous books on how to make pipe bombs? Yes, especially if he is an angry young man, mad at the world and attending a public school. This isn't any different than putting red flags on books that could be used by young, angry, anti-American folks.

Personally, I don't get the anger at the behind-the-scenes investigations. They help prevent terrorism. It's not like the only people killed in these attacks are going to be the "self-righteous right wing" people. It's everybody. They don't pick and choose who will die. If you are American, you will die. As a matter of fact, if you are from any nation that doesn't despise the western world, you are a target.

[Hhhyyyddd]

look at a lot of bomb-making books, do you? i'm sure they don't care what you read, as long as it isn't one of their 'red flag' books. i think you're just looking for reasons to be paranoid.

Meant to be humorous, okay, but we all have our own ideas on what's funny.

To answer your question, I own a "bomb making book" and have read a few others. I guess that's a lot. I put the quotes around bomb making book because the book contains information on many other things. I have also read the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf. None of this makes me a bomb maker or a nazi. It is none of the government's business what I read. I'm not sure where paranoia comes in, on one hand you're calling people paranoid and defending book flagging on the other?
As for the theoretical 15 year old, since these forums are pretty much a theoretical world, I would like to suggest that his parents monitor his reading material. I don't want to get slammed for that, I just said it was a theory and that parental policing has failed sadly at times, Columbine the most obvious example. In my theory world people would keep an eye on what their kids were reading and watching and listening to instead of expecting the government to do it for them.

[pattyepye]

Well, it was supposed to be a joke, but it seems as though some of you didn't turn on your sense of humor switches today.



Perhaps that "looking at bomb-making books" was supposed to be funny, but it blew up in your face. :laugh: :laugh:

Signed,
a left-wing pompous liberal

[dandylin]

:laugh: :laugh: Anyone want to borrow my copy of the Anarchist Cookbook?

[Hhhyyyddd]

:laugh: :laugh: Anyone want to borrow my copy of the Anarchist Cookbook?
LOL, looks like we have the same "bomb making book"- but shhhh, don't speak of it, remember that we're paranoid

[cowleyh]

Perhaps that "looking at bomb-making books" was supposed to be funny, but it blew up in your face. :laugh: :laugh:

Signed,
a left-wing pompous liberal

Ouch. :laugh:

[LastLaugh]

A totalitarian state is the safest when battling terrorists.

A totalitarian state is itself a terroristic institution. If freedoms continue to be curtailed, I have more to fear from my own government then from terrorists.

[LastLaugh]

I hate when people speak disrespectfully of Mr Bush--like he's some illiterate fool.
I think people are blindly throwing out rhetoric in regard to President Bush. They shouldn't be calling him an illiterate fool. The term they should be using is "barely literate fool".

[Hhhyyyddd]

I think people are blindly throwing out rhetoric in regard to President Bush. They shouldn't be calling him an illiterate fool. The term they should be using is "barely literate fool".

Anyone who cannot pronounce the word nuclear is an illiterate fool. The man is an embarassment. I think you're being too kind to him.

[MrDave]

Anyone who cannot pronounce the word nuclear is an illiterate fool. The man is an embarassment. I think you're being too kind to him.

I am always pronouncing that incorrectly. I blame Bush.

I also talk about the "ingrinnable" elements of the current election, the "complicated tragsactions" that we need to consider, the "hurdles" we will "achieve", etc.

So sad:

------------------------
"Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take
dream."
—LaCrosse, Wis., Oct. 18, 2000

"If I'm the president, we're going to have emergency-room care,
we're going to have gag orders."

"Quotas are bad for America. It's not the way America is all
about."

"If affirmative action means what I just described, what I'm for,
then I'm for it."
—St. Louis, Mo., October 18, 2000

"I think if you know what you believe, it makes it a lot easier to
answer questions. I can't answer your question."
—In response to a question about whether he wished he could take back any of his answers in the
first debate. Reynoldsburg, Ohio, Oct. 4, 2000 (Thanks to Peter Feld.)

"I mean, there needs to be a wholesale effort against racial
profiling, which is illiterate children."
—Second presidential debate, Oct. 11, 2000

I've been talking to Vicente Fox, the new president of Mexico... I know him... to have gas and oil sent to U.S.... so we'll not depend on foreign oil...
-- on the first Presidential debate, 10/03/2000

"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
—Saginaw, Mich., Sept. 29, 2000

"One of the common denominators I have found is that expectations
rise above that which is expected." --Los Angeles, Sept. 27, 2000

"...more and more of our imports are coming from overseas."
-- On NPR's Morning Edition (9/26)

"A tax cut is really one of the anecdotes to coming out of an
economic illness."-- The Edge With Paula Zahn, Sept. 18, 2000

"They have miscalculated me as a leader."

"Well, I think if you say you're going to do something and don't do
it, that's trustworthiness."

"See, one of the interesting things in the Oval Office—I love to bring people into the Oval Office—right around the corner from here—and say, this is where I office, but I want you to know the office is always bigger than the person."—Washington, D.C., Jan. 29, 2004

"One of the most meaningful things that's happened to me since I've been the governor—the president—governor—president. Oops. Ex-governor. I went to Bethesda Naval Hospital to give a fellow a Purple Heart, and at the same moment I watched him—get a Purple Heart for action in Iraq—and at that same—right after I gave him the Purple Heart, he was sworn in as a citizen of the United States—a Mexican citizen, now a United States citizen."—Washington, D.C., Jan. 9, 2004

"And if you're interested in the quality of education and you're paying attention to what you hear at Laclede, why don't you volunteer? Why don't you mentor a child how to read?"—St. Louis, Mo., Jan. 5, 2004

"[A]s you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say."—Washington, D.C., Oct. 28, 2003

[Veuve-Cliquot]

Such an embarrassing nimrod.

[MrDave]

"See, free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction."—Milwaukee, Wis., Oct. 3, 2003

[Tametaz]

Bushisms always make me smile.

[carogonza]

"See, free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction."—Milwaukee, Wis., Oct. 3, 2003

OMG the man is nitwit. I just want to know why can't we find a qualified person to run this country. :frown3:

[hort1]

I am always pronouncing that incorrectly. I blame Bush.

I also talk about the "ingrinnable" elements of the current election, the "complicated tragsactions" that we need to consider, the "hurdles" we will "achieve", etc.

So sad:


The mind reclines in horror at his verbal gaps.......

[dandylin]

:laugh: :laugh: Now, we are not supposed to show disrespect for our president! :laugh:

[MrDave]

"I glance at the headlines just to kind of get a flavor for what's moving. I rarely read the stories, and get briefed by people who are probably read the news themselves."—Washington, D.C., Sept. 21, 2003