610 American Men and Women

[Current]

Six hundred and ten American men and women have died in Iraq since Bush sent them into that country. I was one of the Shrubs' biggest supporters when this whole thing started, but no longer, NO LONGER. I repeat....610 of our people are now dead, and not coming back to our country alive, they are coming home in flagged draped coffins, coming home to grieving families and friends.

This has gone on too long, and our fellow Americans....military and non-military, are being being killed, tortured, hanged, dragged through the streets, and hung in that country...and for what? The freedom of the people of Iraq? Freedom is a wonderful thing, and if I had my way, every person on the face of our Mother Earth would be entitled to it. I think that ALL humans deserve to live without torture and living in fear every day of their lives. BUT.........I'm thinking that some of those people don't really give a crap what we are doing for them. Yea...we got rid of SH and some of his bigwig muckymucks, but at what cost?

The cost is 610 Americans. And every one of those six hundred and ten heros have families, and loved ones here. And there are ten's of thousands of other heros over there right now, doing what they were sent to do.

When will this end? When will we bring our troops home? When will we finally realize that this is a lost cause? When are we going to understand that many people in that country don't care about us, and what we are trying to do for them, America is never going to be able to make the people of Iraq happy, EVER,......we got rid of SH....but it doesn't seem to be good enough for them.

My PERSONAL opinion is that we should leave that country.....let them form their own government, whatever it may be. We got rid of a BAD man for them.....we were rejoiced at the beginning...remember that? Remember all the people in Iraq celebrating in the streets, and helping bring SH pictures, posters and statues down....beating their shoes on all the images of SH? But now we are being crapped on and our women and men are being killed. They kill our people who are there to help them.....well.....screw them. I say let them make their own way now. SH is not an issue anymore.......It is time we bring OUR Men and Women home. If the people over there don't like it, then they can go back to where they were before.


As of a few minutes ago.....610 Americans have died over there. Remember that. Not one, not two, not ten. 610. Six Hundred and Ten. How many of us know 610 people, or have 610 friends or relatives? Think about it. Everyone of those 610 have families, friends, daughters, wives, husbands, sons, nephews, nieces, fathers, mothers,,,,,etc.

We need to stop this. Now.

[Hhhyyyddd]

:cheer: :cheer: :cheer:
Current, well said. It is time to bring our people home.

[carogonza]

Current,
I agree. Unfortunately, I was watching the TODAY show this morning and Senator John McCain was saying that he beleives we will be in Iraq for a whole lot more years to come. I am so angry that we went into Iraq in the first place. Now our men and women in the armed forces are paying dearly for it. :mad:

[iluvmichele]

September 11, 2001. Anyone remember that date? Ring a bell? Do you remember watching on TV with your friends and family as the towers fell? Remember what you felt like? Angry? Violated? Sense of security shattered? Any of those emotions strike a chord? Yes Current 610 (now 620 as of Sunday) American soldiers and civilians (by the way, the civilians are there because they WANT to be there. They are choosing to go to Iraq because of huge financial incentives. And by the way, these people for the most part, are highly educated, highly trained individuals. Not grunt workers making minimum wage over here. Not that it makes their deaths any less horrific, however let's be clear about what their motives are for being in Iraq. They clearly know the risk/reward ratio and they are choosing to roll the dice.) are dead since George Bush and Tony Blair had the courage to do something about terrorism in our world.

I am sorry that you feel that this has gone on too long. You know what, it's going to go on a lot longer. Does that suck? Yes it does. However, anything that is worthwhile takes sacrafice. Our soldiers may not have made the choice to go to Iraq, but last time I checked our military was still all volunteer. When I joined the Navy back in 1978, there was no war going on but there certainly could have been. Certainly back then the cold war posed just as much of militaristic threat as terrorism does today. However I made the choice to serve my country. Lest you think I am so altruistic, I am not. I joined the military to gain other benefits as well, however I knew that if the bell rang for war, I would have to answer it. And so did these soldiers. Does it make their deaths justified. No, death sucks. But certainly in my opinion living under the constant fear of the next 9/11 is a living death, one far worse than the actual one.

You say the cost is 610 Americans. That is a small price to pay for our freedom. The American way of life. This isn't EVEN about Iraq itself, Iraq's freedom. It is about a much bigger issue that you fail to grasp. Since George Bush took a stand against terrorism and implimented both military and non-military strategies and initiatives, how many buildings have been catcher's mitts for planes in this country? Zero. What exactly is your definition of a lost cause? To quit when the going gets tough? To run home to mommy cause you don't like the way things are turning out? We are not trying to make the people of Iraq happy! What EVER gave you that idea? This is not about making them happy. You just don't understand the underlying issues of the reality of either the Middle East in general or Iraq in particular. It is complex, you have all these different political zealot factions running all over the place each one expousing their political agenda in a very, very violent way. It isn't the people of Iraq (the ones tearing down pictures and statues of Saddam) that are killing our troops, it is all the deciples of Bin Laden and his ilk that is making this so difficult. And that is the way THEY want it.

I respect your personal opinion that we should leave Iraq. The irony of that statement is that you being able to speak about your opinion is one the freedoms that our troops past, present and future have and will fight for. No matter how popular the cause. And FYI, they already have formed their own government. You say let them make their own way now. Screw them, you guys suck. You are right about one thing. This is not about Saddam. In reality it never was. This totally cracked me up though. Your statement about if the people over there don't like it, then they can go back to where they were before. Really? Where should they go? Where did they come from? Do you have any idea? They LIVE THERE! HELLO!?!?!?
Perhaps if you don't like it here YOU should go somewhere. Like perhaps Spain maybe. Where the wishy washy pussy Spaniards let Al-Queda decide their election. Al-Queda is very shrewd. They knew that the politcal climate in Spain was turning towards your point of view. So they strategically planned their train bomb attack for a few days before Spain's national election. Result: The anti-war party won and now Spain's soldiers are no longer in Iraq. So why don't you go over there where you can be in peace and harmony with the anti-war Spaniards and drink Sangria and watch bull fights with your new anti-war pals. Terrorism groups feed off of fear, and now they have Spain just where they want them.
The United States of America will never bow to terrorism. Never. In your conclusion paragraph you once again hit us over the head with the number of Americans lost (ad-nauseum). Then you went on to mention that they all have families, friends, etc. I would be willing to wager that although those families are grieving for their dead loved ones, that most, if not all would say that they are proud of the service that their loved ones provided to this country and do not regret the decisions that their loved ones made.

In conclusion, I rarely post most of anything here. However, when I saw your post there was a pain in my ass that developed to the point where I felt that someone had to stand up and say something to the headline reactionaries of the day. You people tend to look at the headlines with knee jerk reflexes without considering the bigger picture. I just think that a well thought out post with something to say is more insightful than a chicken little, the sky is falling down alarmist blathering. I could be wrong but this is my opinion. Still buddies?

[iggy1I]

September 11, 2001. Anyone remember that date? Ring a bell?
What does Sept 11 have to do with Iraq?? Nothing! saddam was contained, he was no threat to us or anyone else. There was no need to rush into Iraq. Keep wrapping dubya in that flag...

Current--as much as the loss of lives in Iraq breaks my heart, we cannot pull out now. You and I have butted heads a few times on these boards and you know I was never for invading Iraq. I am glad you and others see it now, but in some way I wish I was the one who was wrong. Does that makes sense? I can only hope that with the coming election, we can get someone elected into office who can close the rift with our former allies. We need help...

[Txsweeper]

FREEDOM ISN'T FREE

[iluvmichele]

"What does Sept 11 have to do with Iraq?? Nothing! saddam was contained, he was no threat to us or anyone else. There was no need to rush into Iraq."

I thought I made my position clear in my post what 9/11 has to do with Iraq. Any planes dropping in on Hartford lately? How about bomb cakes in tony Westport? Us being in Iraq has shown the world our resolve. That is what it has to do with Iraq. I don't care if Saddam had WMD or not. He was a zealot kook who sympathized with Al-Queda. On that alone he should have been executed. By the way, we didn't rush into Iraq. We started in Afghanistan and worked our way over.

"I can only hope that with the coming election, we can get someone elected into office who can close the rift with our former allies. We need help..."

Really? Like who. John Kerry? Puhleeze!!!!!!!!! Honestly can you even, with any stretch of the imagination conceive where this country would be right now if Al Gore and (ack!) Joe Leiberman were in the White House. Really I shudder to think of those scenarios. Gore would be on the stump claiming he invented the English language and Leiberman would be railing on Howard Stern. There is some small part of me however that secretly wishes Kerry does get elected. Then when we have trains exploding, nuclear explosions in our own backyards, our water supply poisoned, our economy in shambles you people will have gotten EXACTLY what you wanted!

[MidnightMoon]

"What does Sept 11 have to do with Iraq?? Nothing! saddam was contained, he was no threat to us or anyone else. There was no need to rush into Iraq."

I thought I made my position clear in my post what 9/11 has to do with Iraq. Any planes dropping in on Hartford lately? How about bomb cakes in tony Westport? Us being in Iraq has shown the world our resolve. That is what it has to do with Iraq. I don't care if Saddam had WMD or not. He was a zealot kook who sympathized with Al-Queda. On that alone he should have been executed. By the way, we didn't rush into Iraq. We started in Afghanistan and worked our way over.

"I can only hope that with the coming election, we can get someone elected into office who can close the rift with our former allies. We need help..."

Really? Like who. John Kerry? Puhleeze!!!!!!!!! Honestly can you even, with any stretch of the imagination conceive where this country would be right now if Al Gore and (ack!) Joe Leiberman were in the White House. Really I shudder to think of those scenarios. Gore would be on the stump claiming he invented the English language and Leiberman would be railing on Howard Stern. There is some small part of me however that secretly wishes Kerry does get elected. Then when we have trains exploding, nuclear explosions in our own backyards, our water supply poisoned, our economy in shambles you people will have gotten EXACTLY what you wanted!


Since you are so for this war, YOU can go over there and fight instead of my husband going over there and doing it.

[advantage2000]

RE: Freedom Isn't Free:

This is OPENLY HOSTILE AGRESSION... Iraq posed no direct threat to our freedom, but we went in and bombed the bejeezus out of them and took over the country anyway.


RE: Connections between 9/11 and Iraq:

Haven't we DEBUNKED this alleged connection over and over and over?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/11/Iraq.Qaeda.link/
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-fg-noqaeda4nov04.story
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3909150/
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_6157.shtml

RE: Dubya's alleged allies:

No American president has been more derided by members of NATO than Dubya.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/01/30/europe.bush.rodgers.otsc/
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/16/sprj.irq.us.un/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/globalwarming/

I think John Kerrry will be welcomed with open arms by the International Community.

[advantage2000]

Since you are so for this war, YOU can go over there and fight instead of my husband going over there and doing it.

Chickenhawks send OTHERS to do their dirty work...they NEVER get their hands bloody.

[Maineiac]

Since you are so for this war, YOU can go over there and fight instead of my husband going over there and doing it.


I'm just curious why your husband would join the military knowing that being called to duty is a possibility. Does he feel the same way you do? I don't get it...

[iluvmichele]

QUOTE=MidnightMoon]Since you are so for this war, YOU can go over there and fight instead of my husband going over there and doing it.[/QUOTE]


I never said I was for this war. What I said is that I support our war efforts. What do you think I am a kook? Who is for war? We didn't start the war, we are responding to the threat to our national security. Once again remember 9/11? That is where this all began. As for your husband, I salute him that he is defending our country. I served my country already. And FYI after 9/11 I actually called my local recruiting office, they told me I am too old. Sorry. However, while I salute your husband, I am curious how you can complain when you posted about how your husband re-enlisted and received a nice re-up bonus! Did he make that decison alone? So in my mind he in fact CHOSE to be there too! So dial it down a notch and respect his decision, becuase he made that choice of free will, he sounds like a patriot to me! Just out of curiousity were you married before he joined the military or did he join after your marriage? Either way, you knew the risks of being a military spouse. You too have an obligation as a military spouse. The same as if you were a cop's wife or a fireman's wife. There are certain risks that come with the territory and you made the choice of marrying your husband and the risks inherant to his job.

[iluvmichele]

Chickenhawks send OTHERS to do their dirty work...they NEVER get their hands bloody.

Chickenhawks??? This is not a cartoon, it's real life. And I did my dirty work. Did you do yours? Did you serve your country? People like you author posts like this casting aspersions at everyone who doesn't fit into there little peghole of what life should be like.

[iluvmichele]

RE: Freedom Isn't Free:

This is OPENLY HOSTILE AGRESSION... Iraq posed no direct threat to our freedom, but we went in and bombed the bejeezus out of them and took over the country anyway.


RE: Connections between 9/11 and Iraq:

Haven't we DEBUNKED this alleged connection over and over and over?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/11/Iraq.Qaeda.link/
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-fg-noqaeda4nov04.story
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3909150/
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_6157.shtml

RE: Dubya's alleged allies:

No American president has been more derided by members of NATO than Dubya.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/01/30/europe.bush.rodgers.otsc/
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/16/sprj.irq.us.un/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/globalwarming/

I think John Kerrry will be welcomed with open arms by the International Community.


All left wing web sites. What else would you expect from those sites? Your point of view of course. Yeah kerry will be met with open arms, cause they know that while his arms are open, they can stab him in the back. BTW why do you even care what nato members think? Nato is so powerless and a weak organization. Who cares? I only care about being able to wake up in the morning and embrace freedom!

[advantage2000]

Chickenhawks??? This is not a cartoon, it's real life. And I did my dirty work. Did you do yours? Did you serve your country? People like you author posts like this casting aspersions at everyone who doesn't fit into there little peghole of what life should be like.

Yes... in this REAL LIFE... people are dying for the ambitions of a single person. (I wish this were a cartoon). I also got roped into fighting the Iraqis under Bush Sr.'s Saddam campaign! Where do you think I learned to hate these guys?

[iluvmichele]

Yes... in this REAL LIFE... people are dying for the ambitions of a single person. (I wish this were a cartoon). I also got roped into fighting the Iraqis under Bush Sr.'s Saddam campaign! Where do you think I learned to hate these guys?

A single person? Who would that be? Sounds like you had some issues in Desert Storm. For that I feel awful. War sucks. However, this is a much different world today than it was back then.

[advantage2000]

All left wing web sites. What else would you expect from those sites? Your point of view of course. Yeah kerry will be met with open arms, cause they know that while his arms are open, they can stab him in the back. BTW why do you even care what nato members think? Nato is so powerless and a weak organization. Who cares? I only care about being able to wake up in the morning and embrace freedom!

Unlike my war-mongering ultra-conservative counterparts who quote Rush and O'Reilly and the "Free" Republic, I don't post slanted propaganda... those were all credible mainstream organizations. (You didn't see me quoting Al Franken or DNC.org did you?)

[MidnightMoon]

I'm just curious why your husband would join the military knowing that being called to duty is a possibility. Does he feel the same way you do? I don't get it...


He joined the Military before we met. He needed away to pay for school. No that he is married and has children, staying in the military is whats best for us right now.

Although I am VERY proud of my husband, I don't agree with war and neither does he. But since he is a soldier he does what he is told too. He doesn't have to like it.

[iluvmichele]

Unlike my war-mongering ultra-conservative counterparts who quote Rush and O'Reilly and the "Free" Republic, I don't post slanted propaganda... those were all credible mainstream organizations. (You didn't see me quoting Al Franken or DNC.org did you?)


Well I didn't quote Rush Limbaugh or the Washington Times or G. Gordon Liddy. However, it is widely recognized that NBC and CNN both slant their news towards a hollywood/liberal point of view. The content and view of those networks represents the money mongering power broker moguls of the left coast. I really don't think that there is a fair and unbiased news source today. They all put some sort of spin it, which is why I dismissed those web sites out of hand.

[iluvmichele]

He joined the Military before we met. He needed away to pay for school. No that he is married and has children, staying in the military is whats best for us right now.

Although I am VERY proud of my husband, I don't agree with war and neither does he. But since he is a soldier he does what he is told too. He doesn't have to like it.


Great answer. That says it all. OK let me see if I understand this. He doesn't agree with the war but he just re-upped in the military. Correct? He joined the military because he needed the money. Correct? You married him knowing that he could be called off to a war. Correct? So my conclusion is that you are both hypocrites. He is only in the military for the good stuff but doesn't want to uphold his end of the bargain. I mean really. If he and you don't agree with the war, then why didn't he stay at home all safe and flip burgers? That would be because you both wanted the bennies but bitch about the the work you have to do to get them. That is the definition of a hypocrite.

[Txsweeper]

This is OPENLY HOSTILE AGRESSION... Iraq posed no direct threat to our freedom, but we went in and bombed the bejeezus out of them and took over the country anyway.

When the war in Iraq began, the President was being told by his staff and many other members of our government, including John Kerry, (if that even matters), that Iraq and Saddam were immediate threats to the United States. You can't deny that.

Had we not invaded Iraq and tomorrow Saddam's Followers blew up the Empire State building, you would be screaming and yelling and raising all kinds of hell that the President didn't do anything about it, when he was TOLD it was a good possibility. Hell, he's being slaughtered right now because he didn't invade Afganistan BEFORE 09/11. Make up your minds here folks, you either want a government that will protect you or you don't. You can't have your cake and eat it too!!

Ignoring the "what if's" is just being blind to the truth. Terrorism is terrorism, period. Whether they are citizens of Iraq, Saudi Arabia or Afganistan, they are still terrorists! Saddam and is his followers are terrorists.

This is the War On Terror!! If your friends or loved ones are fighting this battle, I salute them. But that is a choice that THEY made, they weren't drafted into this army!! I'm so sorry that so many innocent people have died and will continue to die, it breaks my heart. But I'll say it again, Freedom isn't Free. And if you think that this war is to the benefit of others living in other countries, you're wrong. Terrorism isn't color blind, it doesn't just effect brown people, black people, Catholics, Jews or Muslims. It doesn't just effect Americans!!

[advantage2000]

http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/qon.gif

[iluvmichele]

Thank you Txsweeper. Most eloquently said.

[MidnightMoon]

Great answer. That says it all. OK let me see if I understand this. He doesn't agree with the war but he just re-upped in the military. Correct? He joined the military because he needed the money. Correct? You married him knowing that he could be called off to a war. Correct? So my conclusion is that you are both hypocrites. He is only in the military for the good stuff but doesn't want to uphold his end of the bargain. I mean really. If he and you don't agree with the war, then why didn't he stay at home all safe and flip burgers? That would be because you both wanted the bennies but bitch about the the work you have to do to get them. That is the definition of a hypocrite.

Excuse me, but he fought in the war and now not even a year later he's going back. Just because WE don't AGREE with the war, or LIKE Bush doesn't mean we are hypocrites. You have no idea what our situation is, or why he re-enlisted so keep your big mouth shut.

[carogonza]

Great answer. That says it all. OK let me see if I understand this. He doesn't agree with the war but he just re-upped in the military. Correct? He joined the military because he needed the money. Correct? You married him knowing that he could be called off to a war. Correct? So my conclusion is that you are both hypocrites. He is only in the military for the good stuff but doesn't want to uphold his end of the bargain. I mean really. If he and you don't agree with the war, then why didn't he stay at home all safe and flip burgers? That would be because you both wanted the bennies but bitch about the the work you have to do to get them. That is the definition of a hypocrite.

I'm sorry but your post is very rude. You have no idea why he is choosing to be in the military or what their circumstances are. ANd since he did re-up I think he is holding up his "end of the bargain."

[advantage2000]

Great answer. That says it all. OK let me see if I understand this. He doesn't agree with the war but he just re-upped in the military. Correct? He joined the military because he needed the money. Correct? You married him knowing that he could be called off to a war. Correct? So my conclusion is that you are both hypocrites. He is only in the military for the good stuff but doesn't want to uphold his end of the bargain. I mean really. If he and you don't agree with the war, then why didn't he stay at home all safe and flip burgers? That would be because you both wanted the bennies but bitch about the the work you have to do to get them. That is the definition of a hypocrite.

Ouchies! Gloves are off, folks!

Even I know not to kick a military spouse when they have people overseas...

:nono:

[carogonza]

When the war in Iraq began, the President was being told by his staff and many other members of our government, including John Kerry, (if that even matters), that Iraq and Saddam were immediate threats to the United States. You can't deny that.

Had we not invaded Iraq and tomorrow Saddam's Followers blew up the Empire State building, you would be screaming and yelling and raising all kinds of hell that the President didn't do anything about it, when he was TOLD it was a good possibility. Hell, he's being slaughtered right now because he didn't invade Afganistan BEFORE 09/11. Make up your minds here folks, you either want a government that will protect you or you don't. You can't have your cake and eat it too!!

Ignoring the "what if's" is just being blind to the truth. Terrorism is terrorism, period. Whether they are citizens of Iraq, Saudi Arabia or Afganistan, they are still terrorists! Saddam and is his followers are terrorists.

This is the War On Terror!! If your friends or loved ones are fighting this battle, I salute them. But that is a choice that THEY made, they weren't drafted into this army!! I'm so sorry that so many innocent people have died and will continue to die, it breaks my heart. But I'll say it again, Freedom isn't Free. And if you think that this war is to the benefit of others living in other countries, you're wrong. Terrorism isn't color blind, it doesn't just effect brown people, black people, Catholics, Jews or Muslims. It doesn't just effect Americans!!

Bush and his administration KNEW there wasn't a connection but still opted to go in. They could have continued on in Afghanistan and after binLaden but they decided to go attack Iraq at a huge cost. 610 is a large number but people are failing to see the long term repercussions of this war and it's going to be bad in the next few years. You just cannot keep pumping money into policing the world without serious implications here in the US.

And on another note, maybe we should go after the Saudi's but haven't. I wonder if it's because the Bush family has connections with the Saudi Royal Family. It is well known that after Sept. 11, the Saudi's were given clearance to fly out of the U.S. I wonder who had the authority to do that? Had to come from very high up.

[advantage2000]

And on another note, maybe we should go after the Saudi's but haven't. I wonder if it's because the Bush family has connections with the Saudi Royal Family. It is well known that after Sept. 11, the Saudi's were given clearance to fly out of the U.S. I wonder who had the authority to do that? Had to come from very high up.

Damn, I was JUST going to post that question...

How about this odd little twist:

Consider the fact that Al-Qaeda and Saddam are enemies. (Al-Qaeda wants an Islamic state, but Saddam is a secular leader) In fact, in 1990 bin Laden offered to use his “army” to liberate Kuwait from Iraqi occupation.

[superchickee]

I want to thank all of our military personnel and their families. I know without them we could not be helping so many other people. I too, am sorry for the loss of lives our country has lost. I don;t like war either. Freedom does come at a terrible cost. :(

[ups91]

Great answer. That says it all. OK let me see if I understand this. He doesn't agree with the war but he just re-upped in the military. Correct? He joined the military because he needed the money. Correct? You married him knowing that he could be called off to a war. Correct? So my conclusion is that you are both hypocrites. He is only in the military for the good stuff but doesn't want to uphold his end of the bargain. I mean really. If he and you don't agree with the war, then why didn't he stay at home all safe and flip burgers? That would be because you both wanted the bennies but bitch about the the work you have to do to get them. That is the definition of a hypocrite.


There are lots of men and women who joined the service because of the GI BILL and the great schooling. Just because they joined the military, doesn't mean that they are all for war. Besides that, there are so many positions in the military that are never supposed to see action. My DH's cousin is an engineer on a Navy sub. He has never been activated since 9/11. Idon't understand that. I have a few relatives who signed up for reserve duty. These are the weekend warriors and are only supposed to fill in when are other military is unavailable. Yet one of them was sent to the front lines in Afghanistan. He is one of those not for this war, but he knew his duty to his country and he has served his time.

[Txsweeper]

Bush and his administration KNEW there wasn't a connection but still opted to go in

A connection to what???? To terror? To your safety? Who says that Saddam had to be Bin Laden's best friend to make a connection? Saddam was known to support terror, at any cost. He was known to fund monies to terrorists. Just because he wasn't bombing the US doesn't mean he didn't have a connection.

If Bush and his administration knew there was no connection, why were people like John Kerry rallying for the disarmment of Iraq? Well, if you look back now, you might see a connection between those planning their future in politics and their insistence that President Bush take care of business.

maybe we should go after the Saudi's

So that would make you happy? Solve the problems? Hmmmm, it is a known fact that most of the terrorists from 9/11 were Saudi citizens. I guess that makes them the representatives of Saudi Arabia.

Thank God Timothy McVeigh, the unabomber, Randolph (the abortion protestor/murderer) isn't the representatives of the United States!!

[iggy1I]

"What does Sept 11 have to do with Iraq?? Nothing! saddam was contained, he was no threat to us or anyone else. There was no need to rush into Iraq."

I thought I made my position clear in my post what 9/11 has to do with Iraq. Any planes dropping in on Hartford lately? How about bomb cakes in tony Westport? Us being in Iraq has shown the world our resolve. That is what it has to do with Iraq. I don't care if Saddam had WMD or not. He was a zealot kook who sympathized with Al-Queda. On that alone he should have been executed. By the way, we didn't rush into Iraq. We started in Afghanistan and worked our way over.

"I can only hope that with the coming election, we can get someone elected into office who can close the rift with our former allies. We need help..."

Really? Like who. John Kerry? Puhleeze!!!!!!!!! Honestly can you even, with any stretch of the imagination conceive where this country would be right now if Al Gore and (ack!) Joe Leiberman were in the White House. Really I shudder to think of those scenarios. Gore would be on the stump claiming he invented the English language and Leiberman would be railing on Howard Stern. There is some small part of me however that secretly wishes Kerry does get elected. Then when we have trains exploding, nuclear explosions in our own backyards, our water supply poisoned, our economy in shambles you people will have gotten EXACTLY what you wanted!
You made it clear alright, that you didn't read what I said. Iraq wasn't going to drop bombs on anyone. There were never any ties between saddam or bin Laden. Show me the proof! Where was the threat?? Iraq was not a terrorist threat and it was contained.
Yes, we did rush in, that is the whole ball of wax right there. If we had the let the inspectors do their job, we would have found that there were no weapons in Iraq.
As for the rest of your post, no facts, no nothing. I am sure glad you can tell what would have happened if the election had worked out differently... :rolleyes2

[Current]

Wow.

I guess I won't blather on anymore about how I feel about needless deaths. I see now that I never should have started this thread, I let my emotions get away from me. But I'm not going to apologize for my feelings, and I'm not going to do something like delete or edit my words. I stand by them. I just didn't imagine that I would be attacked for them.

I have always thought I was a somewhat intelligent person, maybe not the sharpest crayon in the box, but not an idiot either. But since I seem to be ruled more by my kneejerk compassion for our soldiers and their families, I'll bow out of voicing my opinion about stuff like this, and let Bush carry on.

I'll voice my opinion in November.

And yes, still buddies.

[Defenderofthefaith]

I'm just curious why your husband would join the military knowing that being called to duty is a possibility. Does he feel the same way you do? I don't get it...
:cheer: :cheer: :cheer:

[carogonza]

A connection to what???? To terror? To your safety? Who says that Saddam had to be Bin Laden's best friend to make a connection? Saddam was known to support terror, at any cost. He was known to fund monies to terrorists. Just because he wasn't bombing the US doesn't mean he didn't have a connection.

If Bush and his administration knew there was no connection, why were people like John Kerry rallying for the disarmment of Iraq? Well, if you look back now, you might see a connection between those planning their future in politics and their insistence that President Bush take care of business.



So that would make you happy? Solve the problems? Hmmmm, it is a known fact that most of the terrorists from 9/11 were Saudi citizens. I guess that makes them the representatives of Saudi Arabia.

Thank God Timothy McVeigh, the unabomber, Randolph (the abortion protestor/murderer) isn't the representatives of the United States!!

On one hand you are saying that Saddam was a known terrorist. Okay. Then it was okay to go to war with him although he wasn't bombing us. Correct? But then you dispute my line (out of context) about bombing the Saudi's. Well we know there wasa connection with the Saudi's and Al-Queda. So it's not okay to bomb them although there was a connection but okay to bomb Saddam?? Please calarify because I am confused with the logic of your statements.

ANd on another note, Bush was also planning his future in politics when he made the decision to go into Iraq. Please don't try to say only Kerry was or anyone else and not include the present administration.

[iggy1I]

Wow.

I guess I won't blather on anymore about how I feel about needless deaths. I see now that I never should have started this thread, I let my emotions get away from me. But I'm not going to apologize for my feelings, and I'm not going to do something like delete or edit my words. I stand by them. I just didn't imagine that I would be attacked for them.

I have always thought I was a somewhat intelligent person, maybe not the sharpest crayon in the box, but not an idiot either. But since I seem to be ruled more by my kneejerk compassion for our soldiers and their families, I'll bow out of voicing my opinion about stuff like this, and let Bush carry on.

I'll voice my opinion in November.

And yes, still buddies.
Don't ever say that you will "bow out of voicing my opinion about stuff like this", those men and women in uniform need to know that you are behind them. :hugs:

[advantage2000]

I am actually getting VERY tired of the ultra-conservatives saying that Al Gore or John Kerry (or any other Democratic President) would make the tough decisions, or that they would make for poor war time presidents. It's amazing that they can tell the future so well! You must be very wealthy!

HOWEVER, what burns me up more is when they post all sorts of ramblings about how many Democratic Presidents have waged war, or served during war time.

Bottom line: The party does not make the President!

[Txsweeper]

Then it was okay to go to war with him although he wasn't bombing us. Correct?

So we should wait until they bomb us before we try to take control of the situation? And yes, Saddam is/was a known terrorist. Again, it is the War on Terror.

But then you dispute my line (out of context) about bombing the Saudi's. Well we know there wasa connection with the Saudi's and Al-Queda. So it's not okay to bomb them although there was a connection but okay to bomb Saddam??


I'm not too sure whether you WANT to invade Saudi Arabia or you DON'T WANT to invade them. Either way, the day will probably come when this is a realization. Harboring known terroristic groups will probably get your butt blown up!!

ANd on another note, Bush was also planning his future in politics when he made the decision to go into Iraq. Please don't try to say only Kerry was or anyone else and not include the present administration.

My statement was really flipped out there as a personal observation, with no backing or grounds for arguement. I'd say it was a joke, but that would be in bad taste.

[advantage2000]

Wow.

I guess I won't blather on anymore about how I feel about needless deaths. I see now that I never should have started this thread, I let my emotions get away from me. But I'm not going to apologize for my feelings, and I'm not going to do something like delete or edit my words. I stand by them. I just didn't imagine that I would be attacked for them.

I have always thought I was a somewhat intelligent person, maybe not the sharpest crayon in the box, but not an idiot either. But since I seem to be ruled more by my kneejerk compassion for our soldiers and their families, I'll bow out of voicing my opinion about stuff like this, and let Bush carry on.

I'll voice my opinion in November.

And yes, still buddies.

Please don't vow to never post stuff like this based on one or two people's ramblings... it seemed to me like the majority was backing you up. :cheer6:

[Txsweeper]

The party does not make the President!

That's probably the smartest thing anyone has said on this board in a long, long, long time!!!!

[carogonza]

So we should wait until they bomb us before we try to take control of the situation? And yes, Saddam is/was a known terrorist. Again, it is the War on Terror.




I'm not too sure whether you WANT to invade Saudi Arabia or you DON'T WANT to invade them. Either way, the day will probably come when this is a realization. Harboring known terroristic groups will probably get your butt blown up!!



My statement was really flipped out there as a personal observation, with no backing or grounds for arguement. I'd say it was a joke, but that would be in bad taste.

There was never any proof Iraq was going to drop a bomb on us. Saddam was a dictator and a bad man but not a terrorist like Al-Queda members are. Where is the proof of that? Like Iggy said before: Iraq was not a terrorist threat and it was contained. Once again if we use your logic of "he was a terrorist and was going to to something" then to be true to that logic, we must bomb CHina, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Syria, Iran, and whoever might harbor ill feeling s toward us because THEY MIGHT do something. It doesn't make sense.

[DrJohn]

FACT: The prez and his staff LIED about the reasons for going to iraq and continued to LIE until overwhelming evidence forced them to admit that they were "mistaken"


FACT:OVER 600 Americans have died as a result.


FACT: Dubya and his supporters will say and do anything to justify the course that they have plotted for our Country.


At least Mr Kerry has been tested under fire by serving our Country during war times while dubya was doing drugs and hiding behind his father's wealth and influence. Oh,I'm sorry...you say georgie did serve?Mmmmm...that dentist's chair that he sat in hardly qualifies as military service.

[pattyepye]

Wow.

I guess I won't blather on anymore about how I feel about needless deaths. I see now that I never should have started this thread, I let my emotions get away from me. But I'm not going to apologize for my feelings, and I'm not going to do something like delete or edit my words. I stand by them. I just didn't imagine that I would be attacked for them.

I have always thought I was a somewhat intelligent person, maybe not the sharpest crayon in the box, but not an idiot either. But since I seem to be ruled more by my kneejerk compassion for our soldiers and their families, I'll bow out of voicing my opinion about stuff like this, and let Bush carry on.

I'll voice my opinion in November.

And yes, still buddies.

current, please keep voicing your opinion, do it regardless of what some others might say. I for one appreciate people who express opinions not based on popular response, but on truth, and another spin to the present acceptance of the status quo.

[Txsweeper]

current, please keep voicing your opinion, do it regardless of what some others might say. I for one appreciate people who express opinions not based on popular response, but on truth, and another spin to the present acceptance of the status quo.

I second that motion!

Some people are hard-headed, will never see the beyond their own beliefs, (who, me???), but appreciate that other people have opinions of their own. Your opinion is just as valuable as anyone elses!!

[Hhhyyyddd]

Current, don't let the thread running away to some ugly place stop you from saying what's in your heart. :grouphug:

[Kym]

I'm just curious why your husband would join the military knowing that being called to duty is a possibility. Does he feel the same way you do? I don't get it...

Are people serving in the military FORCED to agree with the war? No...I don't think so. I'm sure that there were people in the army in Germany who didn't agree with the Halocaust. Who would have thought that they'd join our military only to fight for the pride of a power-hungry President?

[advantage2000]

House of Bush, House of Saud : The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties

Newsbreaking and controversial -- an award-winning investigative journalist uncovers the thirty-year relationship between the Bush family and the House of Saud and explains its impact on American foreign policy, business, and national security.

House of Bush, House of Saud begins with a politically explosive question: How is it that two days after 9/11, when U.S. air traffic was tightly restricted, 140 Saudis, many immediate kin to Osama Bin Laden, were permitted to leave the country without being questioned by U.S. intelligence?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074325337X/104-1079335-6383113?v=glance

[advantage2000]

I'm just curious why your husband would join the military knowing that being called to duty is a possibility. Does he feel the same way you do? I don't get it...


First of all... the military makes VERY convicing advertising campaigns, promising oodles of cash, emphasizing how cool the job is (computers, avionics, etc...), and never once mentioning that you may be asked to kill people. I think anyone (like I did) who makes the decision to join up feels that the offer is so tempting, and the feels that the chances of killing people so low, that it's worth the risk.

Also... many people believe that the only way to achieve peace is to prepare for war. In other words, being part of a deterrent force can actually prevent you from ever having to point a gun at anyone.

I am positive that no one who signed up for the military knew that a swaggering John Wayne President wannabe was going to steal an election and unilaterally decide to INVADE A COUNTRY!

[Current]

I guess I was just frustrated when I started this thread, and that has not changed.

We went to Iraq, for reasons that I don't even presume to understand....the war on terrorism, 9/11, WMD's, Bush's personal vendetta for his Dad, a war for oil....who knows? I certainly don't know the real reasons, only Bush and his cabinet members and other higher uppity-ups know exactly why we went there. I'm like everyone else in America, a simple citizen. I am hearing tons of reasons being thrown around, and I sort through all the theories and stuff I hear in the media and formulate my own conclusions. I don't have a pipeline to the White House, and I don't have a Vulcan Mind Meld with the President. I can only know what I see presented to me in the media. Do I wish that I could be a fly on the wall in the Oval Office? Of course. But I'm not.

But the fact remains that we went there and in doing so, we ousted a terrible, murderous, insane dictator who held all of the people in Iraq under his thumb. He terrorized his own people and had been doing so for years. Say one bad word about SH or that dictatorship....next day you or your family might be dead. SH oppressed his people, he tortured them, he killed them, and he lived in obscene wealth while his people starved.

It appeared at first that most of the Iraqi people were rejoicing and looking forward to their new-found, well deserved freedom. We are helping the country establish a new government, training their military, even feeding the people, good things like that.

But then I see the pictures of Americans being drug through the streets, burned, hanged, and I watch the glee of some of the people doing these things. When I said in my original post, "let them go back to where they were before", I meant let them go back to a dictatorship under someone like SH if they wish. Evidently, our efforts to help the Iraqi people are not appreciated, at least by some.

I understand that we can't just leave, withdraw ALL the troops and leave Iraq flapping in the wind. Bush made our bed and now America has to sleep in it. But every time another American is killed over there, and I see or hear about the glee that some Iraqi's feel about killing Americans, I also feel the pain of the loved ones of our soldiers.

This is NOT a slam directed to all Iraqi people, far, far from it. I have friends who are from Iraq.

But the visions of some dancing in the streets, laughing and celebrating my soldiers deaths, are things that I cannot forgive, and will not ever forget.

I may not be an expert on the tensions in the Middle East, never said I was. But I am an American and a Veteran, and as so, I am entitled to my opinion.

And my opinion is that this is going to turn into another Vietnam.

By the way, I have changed my mind about not posting about this stuff anymore. But you guys may notice that just because I disagree with others, I won't get mean about it. I will simply state my opinions and not try to change anyone else's. Sometimes if I am not clear enough in one post, I may post another to clarify. But I will never make someone who's opinion is different then mine feel stupid, or unpatriotic, or that their opinion is not as valuable as mine.

[Txsweeper]

Bravo Current!

I think the way you feel is probably how the majority of the U.S. feels right now. S.H. was a bad, bad man...and it's horrible that our citizens (as well as many other countries citizen's) have died because of this cause.

Let's pray for a fast resolution to this war and the safety of everyone involved.

[carogonza]

And my opinion is that this is going to turn into another Vietnam.



And that's what is the worse thing about this whole situation. We are in a war we never should have fought. We are in a war that we will never win. Bush did make his bed and now a lot of innocent people (American, Spanish, Iraquis etc.) are paying for it. And we will pay in the short-term and worse yet, we will all pay in the long-term as well. :(

[iluvmichele]

First of all... the military makes VERY convicing advertising campaigns, promising oodles of cash, emphasizing how cool the job is (computers, avionics, etc...), and never once mentioning that you may be asked to kill people. I think anyone (like I did) who makes the decision to join up feels that the offer is so tempting, and the feels that the chances of killing people so low, that it's worth the risk.

Also... many people believe that the only way to achieve peace is to prepare for war. In other words, being part of a deterrent force can actually prevent you from ever having to point a gun at anyone.

I am positive that no one who signed up for the military knew that a swaggering John Wayne President wannabe was going to steal an election and unilaterally decide to INVADE A COUNTRY!

Yes, the armed forces pays ad agencies big bucks to develop effective advertising campaigns. In all fairness though, what would you have their ad slogan be? Join the Army - Kill for Freeddom! That would be like McDonald's having an ad saying SuperSize it and Get Fat. However I think that it is very naive of you to think that people enlist with their eyes closed. Perhaps you did and that is why you regret having made that calculated risk that you made.

I do agree with you second paragraph. The actual quote by George Washington was "To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace."

You can characterize Bush as a John Wayne wannabe, however he didn't steal anything. If that doesn't sound like sour grapes I don't know what does. Also he didn't make the decision to invade Iraq unilaterally. He is jsut taking the heat for it. He took intelligence (as flawed as it may have been) and advice from both sides of the aisle (including John Kerry) before he make the tough decision to go forward with trying to eradicate terrorism.

[Veuve-Cliquot]

It appeared at first that most of the Iraqi people were rejoicing and looking forward to their new-found, well deserved freedom. We are helping the country establish a new government, training their military, even feeding the people, good things like that.

But then I see the pictures of Americans being drug through the streets, burned, hanged, and I watch the glee of some of the people doing these things. When I said in my original post, "let them go back to where they were before", I meant let them go back to a dictatorship under someone like SH if they wish. Evidently, our efforts to help the Iraqi people are not appreciated, at least by some.



I think it is extremely important to remember that the Iraqi people DID NOT ASK FOR US TO HELP THEM.

Yes, to our American sensibilities, Iraqi life under Saddam seemed horrifying. But did it seem that way to them? To some Iraqis, perhaps.

Try to think of it this way. What if one of the European countries who looks down on America decided that we Americans weren't as free as we think we are (which I believe is true, but that's another argument), so they decided to come in and depose George Bush from the white house and install a government that they thought was more appropriate.

In this hypothetical situation, they would think they were helping us. But how would you feel? Even as a Bush hater, would I approve of this? OF COURSE NOT!!!!!

One of the biggest problems with Americans is that they simply do not travel, and they have no idea that there are other cultures in the world that don't adopt to what we mistakenly refer to as "democracy" over here, and they do just fine. Cultures that aren't remotely like ours. Americans tend to think that our way of life is the best, because that's all they know. And that everyone else in the world would be just fine if they could behave just like us. Of course, more people are killed in America BY AMERICANS than Europeans are killed by Europeans, but we as Americans don't mind about those kinds of things. Life is still fine because we can go to the mall and we have cheap gasoline.

The fact of the matter is, we do not have all the answers. And our continual patriotic mantra that "America is the Greatest Country in the World" is simply our opinion, not a fact. It is an especially ridiculous thing for any American who hasn't even been out of our country to say. How on earth would you know?

[advantage2000]

Yes, the armed forces pays ad agencies big bucks to develop effective advertising campaigns. In all fairness though, what would you have their ad slogan be? Join the Army - Kill for Freeddom! That would be like McDonald's having an ad saying SuperSize it and Get Fat. However I think that it is very naive of you to think that people enlist with their eyes closed. Perhaps you did and that is why you regret having made that calculated risk that you made.



Hold ON! No one said that anyone was naive... what I said was... for someone to make the question "you volunteered for war and complain when there's war, whats up with that?" is just wrong...and I was saying why.

I didn't say people enlist with eyes closed, either... I just said that it was supposed to be a low risk.

[iluvmichele]

And that's what is the worse thing about this whole situation. We are in a war we never should have fought. We are in a war that we will never win. Bush did make his bed and now a lot of innocent people (American, Spanish, Iraquis etc.) are paying for it. And we will pay in the short-term and worse yet, we will all pay in the long-term as well. :(


I just guess that what gets my goat is the fact that you know, for better or worse we are there. So we need to support our troops and support our President. This is not another Viet Nam. That was a whole other thing that has little or nothing to do with what is going on in the world now. We are there now and we need to figure out what to do to make it work for everyone. In for a penny in for a pound. As far as this war on terrorism goes I think that Ernest Hemmingway said it best "Once we have a war there is only one thing to do. It must be won. For defeat brings worse things than any that can ever happen in war."

[iluvmichele]

Hold ON! No one said that anyone was naive... what I said was... for someone to make the question "you volunteered for war and complain when there's war, whats up with that?" is just wrong...and I was saying why.

I didn't say people enlist with eyes closed, either... I just said that it was supposed to be a low risk.

What!?!?!?! When has being a member of the armed forces been "low risk"??? Who told you that it was gonna be low risk?? Lemme guess....umm your recruiter. My recruiter told me that boot camp was gonna be in a lush tropical location with umbrella drinks. Guess we were both fooled. So thinking that being in the military is low risk IS being naive. I mean be for real. Maybe it was low risk versus the benefits your receive. And it looks to me like you won that gamble. Even though I was in during peacetime, people died. It's a risky occupation. Look at any life insurance application and one of the questions always asked is "Are you a member of the armed forces". Being in the military is in the same mortality risk pool as a test pilot. And as far as your other comment, yeah I don't think people should complain when they volunteered for military service and then a war pops up. Timing is everything. I mean that's what is wrong with people today. They agree to do something until it starts turning out not the way they thought. Then they want to complain and bail. You made a commitment so stick to it and shut up.

[iluvmichele]

I think it is extremely important to remember that the Iraqi people DID NOT ASK FOR US TO HELP THEM.

Yes, to our American sensibilities, Iraqi life under Saddam seemed horrifying. But did it seem that way to them? To some Iraqis, perhaps.

Try to think of it this way. What if one of the European countries who looks down on America decided that we Americans weren't as free as we think we are (which I believe is true, but that's another argument), so they decided to come in and depose George Bush from the white house and install a government that they thought was more appropriate.

In this hypothetical situation, they would think they were helping us. But how would you feel? Even as a Bush hater, would I approve of this? OF COURSE NOT!!!!!

One of the biggest problems with Americans is that they simply do not travel, and they have no idea that there are other cultures in the world that don't adopt to what we mistakenly refer to as "democracy" over here, and they do just fine. Cultures that aren't remotely like ours. Americans tend to think that our way of life is the best, because that's all they know. And that everyone else in the world would be just fine if they could behave just like us. Of course, more people are killed in America BY AMERICANS than Europeans are killed by Europeans, but we as Americans don't mind about those kinds of things. Life is still fine because we can go to the mall and we have cheap gasoline.

The fact of the matter is, we do not have all the answers. And our continual patriotic mantra that "America is the Greatest Country in the World" is simply our opinion, not a fact. It is an especially ridiculous thing for any American who hasn't even been out of our country to say. How on earth would you know?
You are comparing apples to oranges. Life is not a hypothetical situation. The one you laid out has nothing to do with reality. This was NEVER about Saddam. It is about terrorism, worldwide. And I have been to Europe and other places outside of this country. So I am not giving out isolationist views. I can appreciate that there are other cultures in this world. The reason your hypothetical would never work is that European countries by and large (with the exception of Tony Blair and Great Britain) don't have the balls or the wherewithall to actually do something like that. Yes all the eurotrash love looking down their noses at us, especially France. Personally, I could care less. America being the greatest country in the world may be an opinion but it is fact based. And if you think some other country is the greatest, then go live there. One exit, no waiting.

[iluvmichele]

Are people serving in the military FORCED to agree with the war? No...I don't think so. I'm sure that there were people in the army in Germany who didn't agree with the Halocaust. Who would have thought that they'd join our military only to fight for the pride of a power-hungry President?


What on earth does that mean. I think that most people didn't agree with the holocaust.

[Kym]

There were people who were members of the Nazi army prior to the halocaust. When the halocaust began, they were already members of the German military and were forced to carry out the orders of the dictator, however wrong they may have been.

The same thing is going on now. I'm sure that the people in the military didn't sign up so that they could raid countries so that a President can stoke his pride.

Most people sign up for the military to protect this country's freedom...not to start unfounded wars. Are you not following me?

[iluvmichele]

You made it clear alright, that you didn't read what I said. Iraq wasn't going to drop bombs on anyone. There were never any ties between saddam or bin Laden. Show me the proof! Where was the threat?? Iraq was not a terrorist threat and it was contained.
Yes, we did rush in, that is the whole ball of wax right there. If we had the let the inspectors do their job, we would have found that there were no weapons in Iraq.
As for the rest of your post, no facts, no nothing. I am sure glad you can tell what would have happened if the election had worked out differently... :rolleyes2

What I made clear is that this is a war on terrorism. Really terrorism was contained? As far as predicting what would have happened if we had an Al/Joe twosome in there. It was just my best guess, your guess is invited.

[Current]

One of the biggest problems with Americans is that they simply do not travel, and they have no idea that there are other cultures in the world that don't adopt to what we mistakenly refer to as "democracy" over here, and they do just fine. Cultures that aren't remotely like ours. Americans tend to think that our way of life is the best, because that's all they know. And that everyone else in the world would be just fine if they could behave just like us.

The fact of the matter is, we do not have all the answers. And our continual patriotic mantra that "America is the Greatest Country in the World" is simply our opinion, not a fact.

I do not hold the opinion that America is the absolute authority on what is right for the rest of the world. Goddess knows, we have our own problems. We have adults and children with no health care, we have homeless people, we have people working their butts off, but still living under the "poverty level", we have mega crime, etc...etc...etc. America is not perfect, by any means. I am not saying that "our way is the only way or it's the highway."

I totally respect other cultures, heck, I am probably one of the most tolerant then it comes to the way other people live. I respect traditions, cultures, and other ways of life, even tho they may be different then mine.

But I get concerned when I learn of other humans being denied simple things, like being able to speak their mind without the fear of retaliation, like being killed or tortured. I get concerned when I hear about female children being mutilated (female circumcision and the like). I get concerned when I hear that people in other countries are denied basic human needs like food, water and shelter. I get concerned when I hear that the father of a family of five is killed, simply because he voices a differing opinion of his government or leaders.

Maybe I am just spoiled, I'll admit that. I live in America, and as long as I don't go overboard like carrying a gun into the White House, I am free to voice my opinion, even if it disagrees with my government. I don't have to worry about being yanked out of my house in the middle of the night and being disposed of.

Yes, I live in America, and I am so thankful that I do. And it seems like many other people around the entire world think the same thing, or else we would not have so many others from other countries coming to this Melting Pot we call America to live.

[iluvmichele]

There were people who were members of the Nazi army prior to the halocaust. When the halocaust began, they were already members of the German military and were forced to carry out the orders of the dictator, however wrong they may have been.

The same thing is going on now. I'm sure that the people in the military didn't sign up so that they could raid countries so that a President can stoke his pride.

Most people sign up for the military to protect this country's freedom...not to start unfounded wars. Are you not following me?

That "following orders" crap didn't fly at Nueremberg and got a lot of Nazi's hanged. So it ain't flying my flag either. What do think our armed forces are? A bunch of pirates with Blackbeard Bush at the helm? The analogy is incongruous. And do you honestly think that Bush is doing this to get his jollies? So to answer your question, no I am not following you.

[iluvmichele]

Excuse me, but he fought in the war and now not even a year later he's going back. Just because WE don't AGREE with the war, or LIKE Bush doesn't mean we are hypocrites. You have no idea what our situation is, or why he re-enlisted so keep your big mouth shut.

I'll make you a deal. I'll keep my big fat mouth shut when you stop posting about how wonderful his re-enlistment bonus was. You can't have it both ways. There are risks in being in the military, you both knew them and accepted them, but now you want to change the rules. It doesn't work that way.

[Kym]

My original post was in response to this statement "Originally Posted by Maineiac
I'm just curious why your husband would join the military knowing that being called to duty is a possibility. Does he feel the same way you do? I don't get it..."

It's not an incongruous analogy at all. Being called to duty to defend our country is one thing...being called to duty to dessimate an entire country because Bush has a vendetta against Saddam is a completely different story. Don't take it out of context and you'll see what I'm talking about.

I'm sure they'd have no issue being called to duty for a worthy cause...but I doubt many of them thought they'd be sacrificing their lives for Bush's warped belief system. He won't even attend their funerals as they lie down their lives in what Bush claims is a war "protecting our country."

Or do you simply not want to see? I'm seeing a lot of people nowadays that only "hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest."

I *DO* happen to think that a good part of our war with Iraq is so Bush could get his jollies. I also am petrified that the Republican propaganda machine has so many people blinded into thinking that Iraq had *anything* to do with 9/11.

[MidnightMoon]

I'll make you a deal. I'll keep my big fat mouth shut when you stop posting about how wonderful his re-enlistment bonus was. You can't have it both ways. There are risks in being in the military, you both knew them and accepted them, but now you want to change the rules. It doesn't work that way.


Excuse me but I never said anything about a bonus. Would you like to borrow my glasses?

[Kym]

Don't sweat it, Midnight. Iluv is just being combative.

We all appreciate what you and your husband have sacrificed. Hopefully we'll get all of our men and women out of Iraq very soon.

Kym

[bulldglit]

That "following orders" crap didn't fly at Nueremberg and got a lot of Nazi's hanged. So it ain't flying my flag either. What do think our armed forces are? A bunch of pirates with Blackbeard Bush at the helm? The analogy is incongruous. And do you honestly think that Bush is doing this to get his jollies? So to answer your question, no I am not following you.


That following orders crap didn't fly with a lot of German soldiers either. That is why they were shot. You don't honestly think that our servicemen have anymore of a choice to follow orders do you. They may not be shot, but they would likely wind up being court-maritaled and jailed.

[Current]

I guess I am missing something here. I just went back through this entire thread and I didn't see MidnightMoon mention anything about a bonus for her hubby re-upping.

Besides, I doubt that anyone would want to be sent to Iraq twice for a bonus.

[iluvmichele]

I guess I am missing something here. I just went back through this entire thread and I didn't see MidnightMoon mention anything about a bonus for her hubby re-upping.

Besides, I doubt that anyone would want to be sent to Iraq twice for a bonus.

No, it wasn't here, it was in another thread.

[iluvmichele]

That following orders crap didn't fly with a lot of German soldiers either. That is why they were shot. You don't honestly think that our servicemen have anymore of a choice to follow orders do you. They may not be shot, but they would likely wind up being court-maritaled and jailed.

It all comes down to choices. Would you rather be court-martialed or commit what you perceive to be genocide?

[MidnightMoon]

I guess I am missing something here. I just went back through this entire thread and I didn't see MidnightMoon mention anything about a bonus for her hubby re-upping.

Besides, I doubt that anyone would want to be sent to Iraq twice for a bonus.

He did get a bonus. He didn't get it for going back to Iraq. He got it for staying where we are.

[Txsweeper]

Why would one believe that the war is simply to stroke an ego? What about this:

Repression of the Iraqi People
Summary
Saddam Hussein's repression of the Iraqi people has not stopped.

He is draining the southern marshes, causing grave environmental damage and forcible relocation of civilians in an attempt to eliminate opposition to the regime.

He is murdering Shi'a clerics.

He is destroying villages and forcibly relocating people in both the north and the south and destroying villages in the south.

International human rights groups and others are gathering evidence and working to establish an international criminal court to try Saddam and his senior aides for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

He has used chemical weapons against his own people.

I know what you'll say, "It's not our problem". Well, perhaps you're right, except that a man this evil will make it your problem, given half a chance! My God people, he starves babies, he kills religious figures, he mangles women! Isn't that worth fighting for?

[Veuve-Cliquot]

I do not hold the opinion that America is the absolute authority on what is right for the rest of the world. Goddess knows, we have our own problems. We have adults and children with no health care, we have homeless people, we have people working their butts off, but still living under the "poverty level", we have mega crime, etc...etc...etc. America is not perfect, by any means. I am not saying that "our way is the only way or it's the highway."

I wasn't insinuating that you were, Current, I was just addressing your comment about Iraqis not being happy that we were there. The hypothetical argument that I raised was simply to illustrate my point, and I fear that it's a bit off topic if I continue my thoughts here in this thread, so I'll save them for another one. Believe me, I have LOTS of thoughts on that subject.

But to get back to topic. The situation in Iraq is dire indeed. We are completely unequipped to deal with what is going on over there. Were we wrong to go there in the first place? Probably. Were we wrong to go there without a coherent plan for reconstruction and allies (other than Tony Blair) behind us? Most definitely. Many, many more Americans will die over there before this is over. Is the world a better place without Saddam? Probably. Did Bush act too hastily? Probably. But leaving Iraq right now is simply out of the question.

For the average Iraqi RIGHT NOW, life is much, much worse than when Saddam was in power. Hopefully things will get better for them in the future -- but right now, they have no electricity much of the time. Much less freedom AT THIS MOMENT than when Saddam was in power. Many can't drive on the streets. And the Americans over there are incredibly disorganized, and not giving Iraqis concrete information about what is going to happen to them, BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW. WE HAVEN'T FORMULATED A PLAN FOR THEM. It is very easy for us to look at them and expect them to be grateful for liberating them from an evil dictator. But when your children are being killed and you don't have electricity or food, it's a hard thing to have hope for a day that things MAY get better, and even harder to put your faith in a culture that is so completely foreign to everything that has been done in your country for thousands of years. That doesn't make it right for them to kill Americans and hang them off of bridges, and those images are certainly upsetting. But I think it takes immense chutzpah for us to expect the average Iraqi to be GRATEFUL to America, at least at this point in time.

[advantage2000]

Why would one believe that the war is simply to stroke an ego? What about this:

Repression of the Iraqi People
Summary
Saddam Hussein's repression of the Iraqi people has not stopped.

He is draining the southern marshes, causing grave environmental damage and forcible relocation of civilians in an attempt to eliminate opposition to the regime.

He is murdering Shi'a clerics.

He is destroying villages and forcibly relocating people in both the north and the south and destroying villages in the south.

International human rights groups and others are gathering evidence and working to establish an international criminal court to try Saddam and his senior aides for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

He has used chemical weapons against his own people.



OK... Saddam was bad... can we all agree to this and move on? The real problem I think is why did Dubya decide that our boys and girls in the military had to risk their lives to get him out? I've said it before... atrocities happen EVERY day in EVERY country.

[carogonza]

I just guess that what gets my goat is the fact that you know, for better or worse we are there. So we need to support our troops and support our President. This is not another Viet Nam. That was a whole other thing that has little or nothing to do with what is going on in the world now. We are there now and we need to figure out what to do to make it work for everyone. In for a penny in for a pound. As far as this war on terrorism goes I think that Ernest Hemmingway said it best "Once we have a war there is only one thing to do. It must be won. For defeat brings worse things than any that can ever happen in war."

I support our troops and wish they didn't go in the first place but they did. That's what gets my goat. Bush went into this war without any reason. And don't keep saying "it's terrorism" and he was a terror threat because that is not the reason. Bush said the reason we went in was because of WMD's and the connection between =Saddam and Al-Queda. There was no connection, there were no WMD's. He rushed into this war using 9-11 as an excuse and they never really bothered to see what the hell the hell would go on after we went in. Shades of Vietnam. And it does have to do with twhat is going on becuase if we don't look back at history we are destined to screw up again! Well, we have a war and it cannot be won.

[iluvmichele]

He did get a bonus. He didn't get it for going back to Iraq. He got it for staying where we are.

I understand he didn't get a bonus for specifically going back to Iraq. He got a bonus for re-enlisting. So who's to say his next duty station won't be Hawaii? He got the bonus for "x" years of commitment. He is however receiving hazardous duty pay for being in Iraq.

[bulldglit]

I understand he didn't get a bonus for specifically going back to Iraq. He got a bonus for re-enlisting. So who's to say his next duty station won't be Hawaii? He got the bonus for "x" years of commitment. He is however receiving hazardous duty pay for being in Iraq.


:trolls: :trolls: :trolls: :trolls: :trolls:



:nana:

[carogonza]

:trolls: :trolls: :trolls: :trolls: :trolls:



:nana:


:laugh: right on bull!

[Current]

Whether or not MidnightMoon's DH got a bonus for re-upping is not the concern here. I didn't start this thread for it to come down to this. I am not over there in that country, none of us typing our opinions in this forum are over there, not knowing if we will come back.

This is getting plain silly. Here we all are, voicing our opinions and we have members here who have loved ones in danger, and we are bantering back and forth like a bunch of first graders, me included.

I started this thread voicing my concern about our fellow Americans getting killed, that was ALL it was. I didn't mean to start some big ole political debate, we have plenty of other threads that have been started for that.

Debate is great....one of the reasons I am glad that I live here in America. But I think that this thread is getting hurtful, and out of hand. I am ready to delete this whole thread, and NOT because others disagree with me, but simply because there are people here who have loved ones over there, and feelings can be hurt if this continues.


I know that if I was married, or had a loved one in Iraq, I wouldn't read this thread, it would hurt too much.

[MidnightMoon]

I understand he didn't get a bonus for specifically going back to Iraq. He got a bonus for re-enlisting. So who's to say his next duty station won't be Hawaii? He got the bonus for "x" years of commitment. He is however receiving hazardous duty pay for being in Iraq.


I would love to be stationed in Hawaii. You know how much they make in HDP each month in Iraq? $50 to $100. That's not alot.

[MidnightMoon]

My husband didn't want to re-enlist. I encouraged him too. He was supposed to get out December of this year, but since his unit is going back to Iraq sometime after Novemeber he would have been stopped lost. He is almost half way to retirement. I dont want him to throw all the years he's worked very hard away. He's thisclose to making his E6. He didn't know there was a bonus until he talked to the re-enlistment guy. I don't want him to go back to Iraq, but I know he has to and I accept that. I don't like it tho.

[Txsweeper]

Whether or not MidnightMoon's DH got a bonus for re-upping is not the concern here. I didn't start this thread for it to come down to this. I am not over there in that country, none of us typing our opinions in this forum are over there, not knowing if we will come back.

This is getting plain silly. Here we all are, voicing our opinions and we have members here who have loved ones in danger, and we are bantering back and forth like a bunch of first graders, me included.

I started this thread voicing my concern about our fellow Americans getting killed, that was ALL it was. I didn't mean to start some big ole political debate, we have plenty of other threads that have been started for that.

Debate is great....one of the reasons I am glad that I live here in America. But I think that this thread is getting hurtful, and out of hand. I am ready to delete this whole thread, and NOT because others disagree with me, but simply because there are people here who have loved ones over there, and feelings can be hurt if this continues.


I know that if I was married, or had a loved one in Iraq, I wouldn't read this thread, it would hurt too much.

Please don't delete, it's healthy to debate, even if it seems harsh.

Guys....don't name-call, name-calling is always uncalled for!! Keep it clean, your opinion, which ever side you're on, is just as important as anyone elses'. Midnight, please know that you and your husband are appreciated. My father, when I thanked him for being military and defending our country, reminded me that the thanks needed to go to my mom and to us four kids as well. Military life is a sacrifice for the whole family, ALL family members are members of the military!

[iggy1I]

What I made clear is that this is a war on terrorism. Really terrorism was contained? As far as predicting what would have happened if we had an Al/Joe twosome in there. It was just my best guess, your guess is invited.
What terrorism out of Iraq? There was no terrorism. :bhead:
I didn't vote for Gore/Lieberman. Know who I wanted to cast my vote for---Sen. John McCain.

[iggy1I]

What if one of the European countries who looks down on America decided that we Americans weren't as free as we think we are (which I believe is true, but that's another argument), so they decided to come in and depose George Bush from the white house and install a government that they thought was more appropriate.



First you taunt me with that avatar, then with this post. I think I'm in love... :love:

[DrJohn]

:trolls: :trolls: :trolls: :trolls: :trolls:



:nana:


Hey, let's show some compassion;it's got to be rough being the only person that's completely right!!!!! :)

[sweepyhead]

Not only do we have 610 dead (as of today, probably more tomorrow), let us not forget the scores of wounded who have returned blinded, maimed, and traumatized due to Shrub's war. I still cannot forget a picture: the sight of the returned soldier and his wife sitting on the couch -- his stump around his wife's shoulder.

Whether you agree that the war was worthwhile or not, it should be noted that Bush has not attended even one of the 610 soldiers' funerals, while he has had plenty of time to raise more than $170 million at those many fund-raising dinners.

Sweepy:sleep2:

[iluvmichele]

My husband didn't want to re-enlist. I encouraged him too. He was supposed to get out December of this year, but since his unit is going back to Iraq sometime after Novemeber he would have been stopped lost. He is almost half way to retirement. I dont want him to throw all the years he's worked very hard away. He's thisclose to making his E6. He didn't know there was a bonus until he talked to the re-enlistment guy. I don't want him to go back to Iraq, but I know he has to and I accept that. I don't like it tho.

I am sorry but I find all that hard to believe. If he has almost ten years in, he would have had to re-up AT LEAST one time before. So he would have known about re-enlistment bonuses. When I got out after five years and this close to E-6 I had to make that choice too. I chose to walk away from the five years even though I was 25% to retirement. It's all about choices. I made my choice and I live with it. My whole point has been you make choices, so live with them. And FYI with the hazardous duty pay, there was a new appropriations bill passed last October. As part of this bill, Imminent Danger Pay (commonly referred to as "combat pay") increased from $150 per month to $225 per month. Additionally, Family Separation Allowance (FSA), which is payable anytime a military member is away from his/her dependents for longer than 30 days because of military orders, increased from $100 per month to $250 per month. Just thought you would want to know.

[MidnightMoon]

I am sorry but I find all that hard to believe. If he has almost ten years in, he would have had to re-up AT LEAST one time before. So he would have known about re-enlistment bonuses. When I got out after five years and this close to E-6 I had to make that choice too. I chose to walk away from the five years even though I was 25% to retirement. It's all about choices. I made my choice and I live with it. My whole point has been you make choices, so live with them. And FYI with the hazardous duty pay, there was a new appropriations bill passed last October. As part of this bill, Imminent Danger Pay (commonly referred to as "combat pay") increased from $150 per month to $225 per month. Additionally, Family Separation Allowance (FSA), which is payable anytime a military member is away from his/her dependents for longer than 30 days because of military orders, increased from $100 per month to $250 per month. Just thought you would want to know.


I never said he didn't re-enlist before. He has. This is the first time he has got a bonus Mr. Know-it-all. My husband has been home since August. He only got about $100 HDP a month.

[DrJohn]

I am sorry but I find all that hard to believe. If he has almost ten years in, he would have had to re-up AT LEAST one time before. So he would have known about re-enlistment bonuses. When I got out after five years and this close to E-6 I had to make that choice too. I chose to walk away from the five years even though I was 25% to retirement. It's all about choices. I made my choice and I live with it. My whole point has been you make choices, so live with them. And FYI with the hazardous duty pay, there was a new appropriations bill passed last October. As part of this bill, Imminent Danger Pay (commonly referred to as "combat pay") increased from $150 per month to $225 per month. Additionally, Family Separation Allowance (FSA), which is payable anytime a military member is away from his/her dependents for longer than 30 days because of military orders, increased from $100 per month to $250 per month. Just thought you would want to know.

It's nice that georgie is raising the pay;I'm sure that makes it easier to go to an illegal war and DIE!!!
Boy,I'm sure that people will be running to get those extra bucks;thay need 'em since he's not doing anything to help the economy here.

[Txsweeper]

Not only do we have 610 dead (as of today, probably more tomorrow), let us not forget the scores of wounded who have returned blinded, maimed, and traumatized due to Shrub's war. I still cannot forget a picture: the sight of the returned soldier and his wife sitting on the couch -- his stump around his wife's shoulder.

Whether you agree that the war was worthwhile or not, it should be noted that Bush has not attended even one of the 610 soldiers' funerals, while he has had plenty of time to raise more than $170 million at those many fund-raising dinners.

Sweepy:sleep2:

Please try NOT to jump my butt for this one, but it's my understanding that's it's extremely rare for a president to attend the funerals of soliders. Why? I have no ides, except perhaps that there are many (that can't be denied) and which ones should he go to?

He has though, gone to some of the families and met with them one on one. Not everything needs to be in the news to be fact.

[MidnightMoon]

It's nice that georgie is raising the pay;I'm sure that makes it easier to go to an illegal war and DIE!!!
Boy,I'm sure that people will be running to get those extra bucks;thay need 'em since he's not doing anything to help the economy here.


I'd rather have my husband home safe than whatever money he's gonna get over in Iraq

[iluvmichele]

Hey, let's show some compassion;it's got to be rough being the only person that's completely right!!!!! :)

I NEVER said I was right. It was my opinion. And we all know just like a.....les, everyone has one.

[Txsweeper]

Gosh, I have a headache!!! I need to find a better forum to read, one that isn't so heart-pounding!

Thanks for the great debate today guys, but think I'll see if there's any new sweeps posted. :shocked:

[iluvmichele]

It's nice that georgie is raising the pay;I'm sure that makes it easier to go to an illegal war and DIE!!!
Boy,I'm sure that people will be running to get those extra bucks;thay need 'em since he's not doing anything to help the economy here.

Why is it illegal. Because you don't like it? Actually as much as you may want to believe it, George is not the king. Congress is actually who raised their pay.

[advantage2000]

This is a debate? All I've seen (and partaken in) is a bunch of grenades being lobbed back and forth over a wall... but it's been fun.

Any day I can be right so many times in a row and argue with some jingoists it's a good day.

:hugs:

[Current]

I don't know about the other branches of the US military, I was just in the Air Force so I may be talking out of my ass here, but I do know that not every job, at least in the AF, offers a re-enlistment bonus. The field that I was in at one point did, but MANY did not. At least in the AF, it depends on how critical the job is needed, and how many members they have in the job field. From what I have seen, it changes from month to month, or day to day, or even year to year. I was in Aerospace Physiology for some of my career, which paid no re-up bonus....but I was also in EOD, which paid a HUGE bonus.

Besides....what price does one place on a human life? Is the "extra pay" we give them worth it?


What does a re-up bonus have to do with my original post when I started this thread? Does anyone honestly think that our soldiers are going over to Iraq to be killed, placed in danger, and being seperated from their families simply because they get some extra money? If a person chooses to walk away from military service, so be it, I did. I served my time and I moved on, it was right for me at the time. But I would think that a US military member (or former member) would understand that some people choose to continue and that should be respected.


This thread is NOT about how much money our soldiers are making. It is about our men and women getting killed.....and for what?

[MidnightMoon]

This thread is NOT about how much money our soldiers are making. It is about our men and women getting killed.....and for what?


Lies

[Maineiac]

My original post was in response to this statement "Originally Posted by Maineiac
I'm just curious why your husband would join the military knowing that being called to duty is a possibility. Does he feel the same way you do? I don't get it..."

It's not an incongruous analogy at all. Being called to duty to defend our country is one thing...being called to duty to dessimate an entire country because Bush has a vendetta against Saddam is a completely different story. Don't take it out of context and you'll see what I'm talking about.

I'm sure they'd have no issue being called to duty for a worthy cause...but I doubt many of them thought they'd be sacrificing their lives for Bush's warped belief system. He won't even attend their funerals as they lie down their lives in what Bush claims is a war "protecting our country."

Or do you simply not want to see? I'm seeing a lot of people nowadays that only "hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest."

I *DO* happen to think that a good part of our war with Iraq is so Bush could get his jollies. I also am petrified that the Republican propaganda machine has so many people blinded into thinking that Iraq had *anything* to do with 9/11.


First of all I did see your response and didn't bother to reply, because you shot from the hip regarging my post. I ASKED a valid question to MidnightMoon... not you, she answered and I'm appreciative for her response. Don't misquote me or read into my question more than what it was...a question. Talk about taking things out of context...

[iluvmichele]

This is a debate? All I've seen (and partaken in) is a bunch of grenades being lobbed back and forth over a wall... but it's been fun.

Any day I can be right so many times in a row and argue with some jingoists it's a good day.

:hugs:
I'm glad you had a good day. I feel the same. Thanks for the rebate.

[Veuve-Cliquot]

Please try NOT to jump my butt for this one, but it's my understanding that's it's extremely rare for a president to attend the funerals of soliders. Why? I have no ides, except perhaps that there are many (that can't be denied) and which ones should he go to?

He has though, gone to some of the families and met with them one on one. Not everything needs to be in the news to be fact.

It's a rare day when I agree with you, Txsweeper, but this is one of those instances. It's an even rarer one when I find myself in the position of defending Bush, but in this case you're right. There is no possible way that he could attend all of the funerals, and how could he possibly choose just one (or even a few) to go to without insulting all of the other families?

While I am thoroughly anti-Bush for many, many reasons, I cannot believe in my heart that he doesn't feel terrible for the Americans who have died over there. I'm SURE he feels terrible. But that is not the issue at discussion here.

Current expressed a very valid, heartfelt opinion about wanting Americans to be out of Iraq. It's a sentiment shared by many people, especially those with loved ones over there. But to leave Iraq now is simply out of the question.

I have grave suspicions of why Bush wanted to go to war with Iraq, and they are getting more and more founded as we find out more information from the White House. Regardless of his motives, I still think it was a terrible idea, and will likely cause MORE terrorism in the long run, if not in the very short run. I find the fact that Bush's relatives and cronies are profiting from the Iraq reconstruction HORRIFYING. But the damage has already been done.

In my opinion, what we need is someone who is less angry, and someone with more International diplomacy, handling this affair. The whole world needs to be involved in Iraq's reconstruction, and financial gain should not be an issue.

Unfortunately, this war couldn't have come at a worse time, because in reality, Bush is concerned with reelection, and not the welfare of the Iraqi people. This is a very crucial time in our history as Americans, and I personally want someone in the White House who is more concerned with diplomacy than bullying.

If this in fact a "War on Terror, " (if such a thing is remotely possible), and not a personal vendetta, then there is absolutely no excuse for shunning the rest of the world's opinions. There was no IMMINENT threat from Iraq, and had Bush waited for the UN to come up with a coherent plan of what to do before rushing in with bombs willy-nilly, the process of reconstruction would be a much easier affair than what we are faced with.

Again, I am sorry for those Americans with family members over there. But we have wontonly destroyed a thousand year old civilization, with pithy promises of "democracy" and "a better life," none of which the Iraqi people can possibly fathom right now. And believe it or not, people, the majority of middle eastern people are NOT terrorists. We need a cohesive plan to clean up the mess we have caused there, and I don't think that reelecting Bush will solve that problem. But unfortunately, pulling out of Iraq at this point won't solve that problem either.

[Heather]

DO I REMEMBER SEPT 11, 2001??!!! HMM, WELL LET'S SEE. I WAS A FLIGHT ATTENDANT BASED OUT OF ALL 3 NYC AIRPORTS. MY COMPANY HAD TO LAY OFF OVER 10K EMPLOYEES, INCLUDING ME. YEAH, I WOULD SAY I REMEMBER IT... EVERYDAY SO FAR THAT IS!!!! :rolleyes4

[iggy1I]

2001: Powell & Rice Declare Iraq Has No WMD and Is Not a Threat
http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/powell-no-wmd.htm

[Current]

I posted this thread to begin with. And then I was sorry I did so. But later on I rallied and figured it was all good, and was happy to see a healthy debate go on.

But now I am back to being sorry I ever brought this frigging subject up. I am going to leave this thread now, and not come back. Not because anyone disagrees with me, but because this has just become too freaking nasty for my taste.

If another Moderator is looking at this thread....feel free to do whatever is needed. Delete the whole dang thing if need be. Goddess knows....... I am within minutes of doing the same.

I guess I should stick to moving posts and correcting spelling errors and doing safe Mod stuff from now on.

My lesson has been learned.

[Kym]

First of all I did see your response and didn't bother to reply, because you shot from the hip regarging my post. I ASKED a valid question to MidnightMoon... not you, she answered and I'm appreciative for her response. Don't misquote me or read into my question more than what it was...a question. Talk about taking things out of context...


I wasn't requesting a response from you...and hadn't realized this was a closed discussion. As a woman with relatives serving who completely disagree with our troups being in Iraq at all, I felt I would resond to your thought.

I didn't misquote you at all...in fact, I quoted your post exactly. Sorry if you were inadvertantly offended.

Kym

[iluvmichele]

I posted this thread to begin with. And then I was sorry I did so. But later on I rallied and figured it was all good, and was happy to see a healthy debate go on.

But now I am back to being sorry I ever brought this frigging subject up. I am going to leave this thread now, and not come back. Not because anyone disagrees with me, but because this has just become too freaking nasty for my taste.

If another Moderator is looking at this thread....feel free to do whatever is needed. Delete the whole dang thing if need be. Goddess knows....... I am within minutes of doing the same.

I guess I should stick to moving posts and correcting spelling errors and doing safe Mod stuff from now on.

My lesson has been learned.
Current, relax. It's not nasty, it's just debate.

[Kym]

Current, I don't want to speak for you, but I think that she's upset at how personal some things have become on this thread. It's one thing to talk about whether or not we should be at war, or if Bush or Kerry should be elected in November, it just becomes very personal, sensitive and hurtful when we start talking about people's husbands and children individually.

I can't imagine how hard it ust be to watch the news in the morning for people like Midnight. My heart goes out to all the moms and wives, husbands and sons. There is so much that we don't see. It breaks my heart. Above all else, I hope that this war is over very very soon.

Current, please don't be upset. I think it's just such a touchy subject...and it's probably good for people to talk about it. I find that in my real life, no one ever talks about what's going on - and I find that far more disturbing than a conversation like this.

Love and light,
Kym

[carogonza]

ALthough it almost went past the line a few times, I think everyone has conducted themselves pretty well in this thread. We don't all agree but it's healthy to debate and healthy to be able to vent your opinions. SO I hope this thread doesn't get deleted.

[iggy1I]

I'm smelling draft. :worry2:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=676&e=1&u=/usatoday/20040406/ts_usatoday/pentagondelaysustroopstriphome

Spain's incoming prime minister plans to withdraw his nation's 1,300 troops unless the United Nations assumes direct control. Honduran officials say they will pull their 370 troops out of Iraq during the summer. Some U.S. military officials in Iraq have speculated that El Salvador, Nicaragua and possibly the Dominican Republic, all parts of the Plus Ultra Brigade serving with the Spaniards, would also depart. Guatemala President Oscar Berger said his nation would not send troops as promised.


President Bush was unsuccessful last month in lobbying the Dutch prime minister to keep his nation's 1,300 troops in Iraq beyond June. South Korea has announced that the 3,600 troops it promised to send to Kirkuk to relieve the United States' 173rd Airborne will not go because of U.S. pressure to participate in "offensive operations." South Korean leaders said they would consider sending forces to other parts of Iraq to help rebuild the country.

[carogonza]

Wouldn't that be awful. He'll wait until after the election though. God, let's hope he doesn't win 4 more years. :shocked:

[sweepyhead]

While I am thoroughly anti-Bush for many, many reasons, I cannot believe in my heart that he doesn't feel terrible for the Americans who have died over there. I'm SURE he feels terrible.


I'm not so sure he feels terrible. I think he sees the troops as little more than cannon fodder. I think George Bush is a bad man.

Sweepy:sleep2:

[oldroses]

I agree with Currents original post. I think it needed to be said, and it's something I've thought of saying myself, only she said it better...so Thank You Current for that! :)

My Dh was in the military for 11 years and was also in the Gulf War. He got out 8 years ago, during the downsizing that was going on at the time, and when he got out, he was very pro military. But in the passing years, he has become more and more disillusioned with what's going on and I'm happy to say that he's more middle of the road these days with his views.

We both agree that we just don't see the reasoning behind the U.S. being over in Iraq now...it just doesn't make sense. And a crucial element-and someone else mentioned this-is the insurmountable and vast cultural divide. More and more, it appears that Iraqis resent the U.S. for intruding upon their country and pretty much shoving "America" down their throats-so this so called attempt at trying to give them "freedom" just isn't going to work. This war will go on for years and years because the politicians and powers that be are missing and point blank ignoring the fact that not everyone wants to be like the good ole U.S. of A.

Dh and I both agree that what happened to the 4 Americans who were dragged and hung is just the horrific beginning of more to come, and that this war opened a whole can a worms that this country will never be free of. So much for "freedom", eh? :nono:

[carogonza]

I agree with Currents original post. I think it needed to be said, and it's something I've thought of saying myself, only she said it better...so Thank You Current for that! :)

My Dh was in the military for 11 years and was also in the Gulf War. He got out 8 years ago, during the downsizing that was going on at the time, and when he got out, he was very pro military. But in the passing years, he has become more and more disillusioned with what's going on and I'm happy to say that he's more middle of the road these days with his views.

We both agree that we just don't see the reasoning behind the U.S. being over in Iraq now...it just doesn't make sense. And a crucial element-and someone else mentioned this-is the insurmountable and vast cultural divide. More and more, it appears that Iraqis resent the U.S. for intruding upon their country and pretty much shoving "America" down their throats-so this so called attempt at trying to give them "freedom" just isn't going to work. This war will go on for years and years because the politicians and powers that be are missing and point blank ignoring the fact that not everyone wants to be like the good ole U.S. of A.

Dh and I both agree that what happened to the 4 Americans who were dragged and hung is just the horrific beginning of more to come, and that this war opened a whole can a worms that this country will never be free of. So much for "freedom", eh? :nono:

Very well said oldroses. I think that's the main problem with this war: there seesm to be no good reason why we went in. No one can give a reasonable and logical reason why we needed to invade Iraq. I personally could see why we went into Afghanistan and didn't necessarily disagree with that but Iraq is a whole different matter.

[Hhhyyyddd]

Very well said oldroses. I think that's the main problem with this war: there seesm to be no good reason why we went in. No one can give a reasonable and logical reason why we needed to invade Iraq. I personally could see why we went into Afghanistan and didn't necessarily disagree with that but Iraq is a whole different matter.

Don't forget that although the Afghani operation was a huge success on many levels, Bin Laden remains at large. We'll never know if he would have been captured had massive resources not been diverted to Iraq before we had finished the job in Afghanistan.

[carogonza]

Don't forget that although the Afghani operation was a huge success on many levels, Bin Laden remains at large. We'll never know if he would have been captured had massive resources not been diverted to Iraq before we had finished the job in Afghanistan.

Agreed. If we would have sent in all those resources, bibLaden would have probably been captured or dead by now. ANd also remember that a lot of the Arab countries seemed to maybe not agree that we should have gone into Afghanistan but understood why we did it and I think some agreed with us (Egypt, Jordan not sure who 4else). But when we went into Iraq without any reason, many were angered. That will bite us on the butt because we pissed off so many more of the extremeists. God knows what we have unleashed. All I know id that a few years from now we will be paying dearly for attacking Iraq without reason. It's scary.

[ups91]

We wouldn't have had to go into Afghanistan if our former President, Bill Clinton, had went after Bin Laden when he attacked us in Somalia. And I believe that if he had, I don't think September 11 would have happened. The US government has had many years to catch Bin Laden and at times it seems like it's a lost cause.

[pattyepye]

We wouldn't have had to go into Afghanistan if our former President, Bill Clinton, had went after Bin Laden when he attacked us in Somalia. And I believe that if he had, I don't think September 11 would have happened. The US government has had many years to catch Bin Laden and at times it seems like it's a lost cause.

Bin Laden is slimy sneaky snake, and it has already been 2 1/2 years since 9/11 and the present administration has not captured him, so it doesn't seem fair to blame it on Clinton.

Even if you captured the slimy sneaky snake, beaucoups des snakelets would emerge from the cave and in their fanatical zeal would start the whole mess all over again. Doesn't mean we shouldn't be vigilant, just means we shouldn't put all our resources into one snake hole.

[iggy1I]

I'm confused!! First Clinton's in the bush thread then bin Laden's in the Iraq thread! :rolleyes4

[pattyepye]

I'm confused!! First Clinton's in the bush thread then bin Laden's in the Iraq thread! :rolleyes4

Guess we are really off course.

[LastLaugh]

FREEDOM ISN'T FREE
no it isn't, currently it's 87 billion dollars and rising

[Current]

If I am not mistaken, the count has gone up. 10 on Sunday, 4 on Monday, and 12 today. :sob: :nono:

If I am wrong, feel free to correct me.

[c1986goose]

I have tried to stay away from this site because we get too passionate about our politics. I want to say this and then I will really try to stay away.

58,000+ military personnel died in Viet Nam. 58,000+ too many!! If the U.S. government back then had truly wanted to win that war there would have been fewer deaths. We never lost a battle, just the war. 600+ in Iraq is too many. If the people will let the government win this one, they can!

For the people on this site that have loved ones in the service, remember that they volunteered for the military. We do not have the draft anymore. For the Reservist and National Guard people, you joined up in peacetime for the schools and the money. You were paid to attend drills (just like I did). Now that the commitment is higher, their families want their loved ones home. You cannot pick and choose when to serve. Like someone said earlier, "Freedom is not free!".

If we cut and run now, like we did in Somalia, then the terrorists will come at us harder. If we give in like Spain did to their threats then soon we will be finished as a nation. We have to stay the course and show the Iraq people that we are there to the end. When the terrorists see that we will not back down, they will.

It hurt my heart so to see those Americans hung on that bridge like butchered meat. As an American you should want those murdering people punished. There was a time that no nation would have harmed a U.S. citizen for fear of retribution. We need to bring that fear back. As a veteran, it tears me up when the casualty totals rise. As a former Marine, I want to be there and kick some a$$.

I understand that people say SH had nothing to do with 9/11. I understand that we need to catch Osama Ben Laden. Us being in Iraq is a good thing because we took down a despot who was killing his countrymen in droves. The Iraq people deserved better and since we are the baddest one on the block, then we took charge. I know that you say Dubya is finishing what his Daddy started. If the truth be known, SH would not have been in power after the first war if Daddy had his way. When the A10's were killing the fleeing Iraqi soldiers by the hundreds and blowing up their vehicles running from Kuwait, the Saudis and their Muslim allies strongly urge GWHB to stop. If he did not then we would have been forced to leave their country and the bases we had there.

Well, I have said a mouthful. I do not think that Dubya is the best President we have ever had and I believe there is more that he can do domestically to help us, but he is the best for this time period. I do not think that Kerry is a good leader. I think he tries to placate too many people. If and just if, he had not protested against us Nam vets there might have been a chance that I could have voted for him, but not now while we are at war.....he waffles too much.

Hopefully I will stay away from this site. Goose

[Foxfire0-0-7]

I won't say much, which is saying a lot for me. I was over there. I fought and served for 24 years. I was in Grenada, Panama, Desert Storm, Haiti and Bosnia. I have been retired 5 years now but my heart is still O.D. Green. I fought so everyone here on this site could express their opinion and not have a death sentance imposed for speaking their mind.

One of the Marines killed today has been a close friend of mine for over 15 years. We spoke just last week. I will miss him. I know one of his concerns ( as was mine when I was over there) was that many Americans just don't understand that it isn't just about WMD, oil, politics or power. It's about people and helping them. That's what its all about for almost all the ground troops there....helping people be free......like us.

Thanks.

[marilyn lux]

I'm so sorry to hear about your friend Foxfire. Thank you both for being there for us.

[c1986goose]

I am so sorry Foxfire....SEMPER FI....DO OR DIE!!! I know how you feel. Goose

[sallykay]

Thinking of you Foxfire, and your lost friend, too.

Regardless of anys personal feeling about any particular military operation, I have nothing but respect and admiration for everyone who serves in the military.

My youngest son's best friend just got out (he's still in the guard), and he will have a disability the rest of his life because he chose to help defend and keep our country safe.

I have mixed feelings about my son joining the army, then being booted due to an old misdeameanor that didn't get cleared up. He could have gone back, but by then he had second son on the way, and fiance said you will not go.

I know he wanted to go, but as a mom, that's hard. I only have 2 sons, and I didn't relish worrying about losing one in a war, but I would have bucked up if he had joined. I can only imagine what the spouses and families of servicepeople are going through now.

[pattyepye]

One of the Marines killed today has been a close friend of mine for over 15 years. Thanks.

A face on a number, sorry Foxfire for your loss. God bless you and his family...as we look to an end to war.

[pattyepye]

I am so sorry Foxfire....SEMPER FI....DO OR DIE!!! I know how you feel. Goose

1984goose, I am glad you are back, I missed you.

[Mary Beth]

Even though I haven't personally known any of those men and women who have died in Iraq, each death has eaten away a little at me. I cry for those who have died, just as I cried when they sent my friends to Vietnam to die. And for what?

I used to run a forum on Compuserve that dealt with international politics. It was an interest of mine and I have continued to stay interested and informed.

For those who think that there was a relationship between al Qaeda and Iraq, you are mistaken. There was not. One of the reasons behind the formation of al Qaeda was that there were foreigners on the holy ground of Saudi Arabia. Al Qaeda was and is a very religiously-based organization. Iraq, OTOH, was the most secular of all Arab countries. Saddam was not a religious zealot. Osama bin Laden thought little of Saddam because Saddam wasn't religious.

We know now that there were no WMD. There was no missle capable of hitting the US. There was no imminent threat. But for those who paid attention to events in Iraq since 1991, this came as no surprise. Hans Blix had even said that he seriously doubted that there were WMD in Iraq. And that was before we invaded.

I tried to ask last year that we give the UN inspectors more time. I even was able to meet with my Congressman and tell him that. He agreed with me and the others who were in that meeting. I wrote to my Senators and they wrote back, agreeing that we should not invade. But certain people had their minds made up. Look at the mess that exists now!

One of the things that my parents taught me was to try to put myself in the other person's place. Imagine that you're an Iraqi who supported your duly elected leader, Saddam Hussein. Now, another country has invaded. You don't have a job anymore. Until recently, you didn't have electricity, even! How would you feel about the invaders?

And here's a final thought: you value freedom more when you work to achieve it. Let's look back at the American Revolution. Would we have valued our freedom as much if, say, France had sent an army in to liberate us? Especially if they'd installed themselves as the rulers and had written our Constitution. Think about it.

[LastLaugh]

You say the cost is 610 Americans. That is a small price to pay for our freedom. The American way of life. This isn't EVEN about Iraq itself, Iraq's freedom. It is about a much bigger issue that you fail to grasp. Since George Bush took a stand against terrorism and implimented both military and non-military strategies and initiatives, how many buildings have been catcher's mitts for planes in this country? Zero. What exactly is your definition of a lost cause? To quit when the going gets tough? To run home to mommy cause you don't like the way things are turning out? We are not trying to make the people of Iraq happy! What EVER gave you that idea? This is not about making them happy. You just don't understand the underlying issues of the reality of either the Middle East in general or Iraq in particular. It is complex, you have all these different political zealot factions running all over the place each one expousing their political agenda in a very, very violent way. It isn't the people of Iraq (the ones tearing down pictures and statues of Saddam) that are killing our troops, it is all the deciples of Bin Laden and his ilk that is making this so difficult. And that is the way THEY want it..
Our invasion of Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11. The Al Qaeda/Iraq connection has been proven to be a fallacy. Of course NOW Al Qaeda is present in Iraq. You say Spain played into Al Qaeda's hands. What do you think invading a middle eastern country and sending them convenient targets is. Invading Iraq has nothing to do with OUR freedom. Saddam Hussein was only a threat to his own people.
You are completely right about us not trying to make the people of Iraq happy. Instead we've added to the ranks of Al Qaeda martyrs. I wouldn't call creating more terrorists, fighting terrorism.

I respect your personal opinion that we should leave Iraq. The irony of that statement is that you being able to speak about your opinion is one the freedoms that our troops past, present and future have and will fight for. No matter how popular the cause. And FYI, they already have formed their own government. You say let them make their own way now. Screw them, you guys suck. You are right about one thing. This is not about Saddam. In reality it never was. .
You are correct this is not about Saddam, this is about trying to control oil production. This is about Bush's friend's profiting from the war. But Hussein was just incidental.
In conclusion, I rarely post most of anything here. .
good, your jingoistic bull**** gives me a headache. Perhaps you should try taking a course in reasoning and logic. this would help you in dissecting current events in an intelligent manner.
I just think that a well thought out post with something to say is more insightful than a chicken little, the sky is falling down alarmist blathering.
So do i , but i read yours anyway.

[LastLaugh]

"What does Sept 11 have to do with Iraq?? Nothing! saddam was contained, he was no threat to us or anyone else. There was no need to rush into Iraq."

I thought I made my position clear in my post what 9/11 has to do with Iraq. Any planes dropping in on Hartford lately? How about bomb cakes in tony Westport? Us being in Iraq has shown the world our resolve. That is what it has to do with Iraq. I don't care if Saddam had WMD or not. He was a zealot kook who sympathized with Al-Queda. On that alone he should have been executed. By the way, we didn't rush into Iraq. We started in Afghanistan and worked our way over.
Afghanistan was a direct blow against Al Qaeda. The invasion of Iraq has nothing to do with the war on terrorism. Using your (lack of) logic , The Vietnam war stopped China from invading America.

[LastLaugh]

There are lots of men and women who joined the service because of the GI BILL and the great schooling. Just because they joined the military, doesn't mean that they are all for war. Besides that, there are so many positions in the military that are never supposed to see action. My DH's cousin is an engineer on a Navy sub. He has never been activated since 9/11. Idon't understand that. I have a few relatives who signed up for reserve duty. These are the weekend warriors and are only supposed to fill in when are other military is unavailable. Yet one of them was sent to the front lines in Afghanistan. He is one of those not for this war, but he knew his duty to his country and he has served his time.
If you join the military, you should be ready to go to war. But the war in Iraq is counterproductive. I believe Afghanistan was neccesary and I do think America should step in when genocide occurs. We should have led a UN force in Rwanda and I believe we should currently intervene in Sudan. Military invervention for a just cause is worthy of US troops. US troops being slaughtered because of avarice is disgusting.

[LastLaugh]

So that would make you happy? Solve the problems? Hmmmm, it is a known fact that most of the terrorists from 9/11 were Saudi citizens. I guess that makes them the representatives of Saudi Arabia.

Thank God Timothy McVeigh, the unabomber, Randolph (the abortion protestor/murderer) isn't the representatives of the United States!!
If funding terrorism is the prerequisite to American invasion, then i guess Saudi Arabia is next in line.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/964663.asp?0cv=KB10&cp1=1
http://www.nationalreview.com/mowbray/mowbray122002.asp
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37745

Bush's friends and business associates the bin Laudens live in Saudi Arabia, so maybe not.

[c1986goose]

I missed you too Cowpattie. Like a heart attack.

[pattyepye]

I missed you too Cowpattie. Like a heart attack.

I will refrain from a snappy comeback, and call to your attention the fact that the war in Iraq is escalating, and it seems our troops are in harm's way more than ever. And in the spirit of this thread, I can't help but agree with current and the others who have expressed their feelings about the evils this war has wrought.

[advantage2000]

U.S. Hits Mosque Compound; 40 Said Killed

FALLUJAH, Iraq - U.S. Marines in a fierce battle for this Sunni Muslim stronghold fired rockets that destroyed part of a wall surrounding a mosque compound filled with worshippers Wednesday, and witnesses said as many as 40 people were killed. Shiite-inspired violence spread to key cities in Iraq

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20040407/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

[Txsweeper]

Of course NOW Al Qaeda is present in Iraq.

You're joking, right?

They just thought they'd prance right into the middle of a war to check things out? I want some of what you're smoking!

[c1986goose]

In what was believed to be the day's deadliest single incident, U.S. Marines battling for control of Fallujah reportedly fired rockets that landed near a mosque, killing approximately 40 people, according to witnesses. Marine commanders said that they responded to gunfire coming from the mosque grounds and took care not to damage the holy site.

An Associated Press reporter in the city saw cars ferrying the bodies from the Abdul-Aziz al-Samarrai mosque after a wall surrounding the mosque was demolished. The mosque itself apparently was not damaged, the reporter, Abdul-Qader Saadi, said.

Marine officer: Troops took fire from compound
But Byrne, the Marine officer leading the operation, told The Associated Press that he ordered the mosque attacked after his men came under fire from 30 to 40 insurgents inside and militants left the compound in an ambulance and shot at U.S. troops.


"If they use the mosque as a military machine, then it's no longer a house of worship and we strike," he said.

Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, a top U.S. commander in Iraq, said the Marines used precision-guided bombs and an air-to-ground Hellfire missile to take out the wall around the mosque where the gunmen were hiding without damaging the building.

“Those Marines are continuing their mission unimpeded by fire from that mosque,” he said in an interview on MSNBC TV.


IT READS ALOT DIFERENT WHEN YOU COPY ALL THE NEWS ARTICLE ABOUT THE MOSQUE. DO NOT MAKE IT SOUND LIKE WE INDISCRIMINATELY ATTACKED A PLACE OF WORSHIP FOR NO REASON!!!

Goose

[iluvmichele]

We wouldn't have had to go into Afghanistan if our former President, Bill Clinton, had went after Bin Laden when he attacked us in Somalia. And I believe that if he had, I don't think September 11 would have happened. The US government has had many years to catch Bin Laden and at times it seems like it's a lost cause.


There are a lot things that we wouldn't have to deal with right now in this country if Clinton had been more worried about national security than where his cigars came from.

[iluvmichele]

Afghanistan was a direct blow against Al Qaeda. The invasion of Iraq has nothing to do with the war on terrorism. Using your (lack of) logic , The Vietnam war stopped China from invading America.

The war on terrorism is not as simplistic as saying invading Iraq=a direct blow at terrorism. It is far more complex, however Iraq is, err was a part of the terrorism equation. And I don't know if you were alive in the '60's however with repsect to Viet Nam the (lack of) logic of the day was defeat Viet Nam and stem Communism from China AND USSR. BTW that (lack of) logic was the Kennedy/Johnson administration.

[iluvmichele]

Our invasion of Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11. The Al Qaeda/Iraq connection has been proven to be a fallacy. Of course NOW Al Qaeda is present in Iraq. You say Spain played into Al Qaeda's hands. What do you think invading a middle eastern country and sending them convenient targets is. Invading Iraq has nothing to do with OUR freedom. Saddam Hussein was only a threat to his own people.
You are completely right about us not trying to make the people of Iraq happy. Instead we've added to the ranks of Al Qaeda martyrs. I wouldn't call creating more terrorists, fighting terrorism.


You are correct this is not about Saddam, this is about trying to control oil production. This is about Bush's friend's profiting from the war. But Hussein was just incidental.

good, your jingoistic bull**** gives me a headache. Perhaps you should try taking a course in reasoning and logic. this would help you in dissecting current events in an intelligent manner.

So do i , but i read yours anyway.


I really don't know what to say without saying a bunch of jingoistic bull**** (whatever that means) about you. So I will take the high road and just say that I vehemently dissagree with your perception of reality.

[advantage2000]

I really don't know what to say without saying a bunch of jingoistic bull**** (whatever that means) about you. So I will take the high road and just say that I vehemently dissagree with your perception of reality.

Since I think I started the jingoist finger pointing, I'll furnish a definition:

extreme chauvinism or nationalism marked especially by a belligerent foreign policy

[advantage2000]

Since I think I started the jingoist finger pointing, I'll furnish a definition:

extreme chauvinism or nationalism marked especially by a belligerent foreign policy

I've looked this definition up before, and I swear that it didn't say beligerent foreign policy before 2000! :grad:

[advantage2000]

Since I think I started the jingoist finger pointing, I'll furnish a definition:

extreme chauvinism or nationalism marked especially by a belligerent foreign policy

Just Googling the word Jingoist and found this HILARIOUS SITE: http://www.jingoist.net/home.htm

"The United States of Our Country is Better Than Yours" :rofl3:

[pattyepye]

There are a lot things that we wouldn't have to deal with right now in this country if Clinton had been more worried about national security than where his cigars came from.

Laying blame on past administrations, does not bring us into the realm of present day realities. The present is the only reality we have, so we must deal with present circumstances to the best objective of intelligent response.

[Carla]

There are a lot things that we wouldn't have to deal with right now in this country if Clinton had been more worried about national security than where his cigars came from.
It's being rather counterproductive to lay blame on previous presidents. It would be like saying that if President Bush Sr. had finished what he started 10 years ago, we wouldn't be dealing with it now. It's convenient to lay blame. Most of us are guilty of that at one point or another.

A lot of time has been spent in this thread talking about loss of lives and servicemembers in general. My DH has been in the Army for several years now and will be until retirement. He's a lifer. Neither I nor my DH has ever complained about what the Army has told him to do. When he went to Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo and Iraq we did not complain. That is his job. I think that when we are in a time of peace, we forget exactly what our loved ones do for a living. We see them as people who work during the week and are off most weekends. They go to the field occasionally but they are in very little danger and come home quickly. We forget the fine print of what their occupation really is. When war comes, we have no choice but to remember.

You say the cost is 610 Americans. That is a small price to pay for our freedom. The American way of life.
Your statement quoted above horrified me. ONE life is a enormous price to pay. Where the loss of life is concerned, there are no small prices. There are only human beings that have ceased to exist and their families experiencing the ultimate nightmare. To call their sacrifice a small price to pay is offensive and extremely disrespectful.

[carogonza]

There are a lot things that we wouldn't have to deal with right now in this country if Clinton had been more worried about national security than where his cigars came from.

Clinton isn't the one who told the American people Iraq had WMD's and that Iraq was involved in 9-11. Clinton was not the one who invaded Iraq under false pretenses.

[iluvmichele]

It's being rather counterproductive to lay blame on previous presidents. It would be like saying that if President Bush Sr. had finished what he started 10 years ago, we wouldn't be dealing with it now. It's convenient to lay blame. Most of us are guilty of that at one point or another.

A lot of time has been spent in this thread talking about loss of lives and servicemembers in general. My DH has been in the Army for several years now and will be until retirement. He's a lifer. Neither I nor my DH has ever complained about what the Army has told him to do. When he went to Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo and Iraq we did not complain. That is his job. I think that when we are in a time of peace, we forget exactly what our loved ones do for a living. We see them as people who work during the week and are off most weekends. They go to the field occasionally but they are in very little danger and come home quickly. We forget the fine print of what their occupation really is. When war comes, we have no choice but to remember.

Your statement quoted above horrified me. ONE life is a enormous price to pay. Where the loss of life is concerned, there are no small prices. There are only human beings that have ceased to exist and their families experiencing the ultimate nightmare. To call their sacrifice a small price to pay is offensive and extremely disrespectful.


Actually I do blame Bush Sr. for not having the fortitude for finishing up the Gulf War and going after Heussen back then. Had he done that, things might very well be different now. However what is counterproductive about it? We are debating issues in here, not curing cancer.

As far as a small price to pay comment. I stated in several posts that all deaths are terrible, however in the BIG picture it IS a small price to pay for freedom. Would this comment be better: One death is too much of a price to pay for freedom? I don't think so. Just like you said in your post, when you join the military you roll the dice. Whatever ones personal motivations are for joining the military, the bottom line is that you are in an organization whose sole purpose is the protection of our freedom and as such you may be called upon to lay your life down for the protection of that freedom. I'm not much of a trekkie, however I think the best line ever from Star Trek is "The needs of the many, outwieghs the needs of the one". I hope that comment puts my point in context.

[iluvmichele]

Clinton isn't the one who told the American people Iraq had WMD's and that Iraq was involved in 9-11. Clinton was not the one who invaded Iraq under false pretenses.

No he didn't tell Americans that Iraq had WMD. He told us "I did not have sex with that woman." Let's be clear also about what else Clinton DID do. He decided the best way to get Bin Laden was to drop some smart bombs on Afghanistan from 50,000 feet. We ended up bombing an empty camp, killing a couple of innocents. Likewise he thought the best way to fight in Bosnia was also from 50,000 feet. And if seeing the terrible pictures of Iraqis dragging Americans through the streets upset you how about what happened in Mogadishu? All of those events were Clinton disasters. So please don't tell me what Clinton DIDN'T do and to tell me don't blame previous administrations. Just because we have the luxury of 20/20 hindsight of history doesn't make the events of his administration any less relevant.

[hort1]

I blame Clinton for the fact that the milk was sour this morning. Oh, and for that flat tire I had last week.

That whole mad cow stuff? Clinton's fault.

And, I believe Hillary practices witchcraft.

Jeesh.

[pattyepye]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I blame Clinton for the fact that the milk was sour this morning. Oh, and for that flat tire I had last week.

That whole mad cow stuff? Clinton's fault.

And, I believe Hillary practices witchcraft.

Jeesh.

[carogonza]

No he didn't tell Americans that Iraq had WMD. He told us "I did not have sex with that woman." Let's be clear also about what else Clinton DID do. He decided the best way to get Bin Laden was to drop some smart bombs on Afghanistan from 50,000 feet. We ended up bombing an empty camp, killing a couple of innocents. Likewise he thought the best way to fight in Bosnia was also from 50,000 feet. And if seeing the terrible pictures of Iraqis dragging Americans through the streets upset you how about what happened in Mogadishu? All of those events were Clinton disasters. So please don't tell me what Clinton DIDN'T do and to tell me don't blame previous administrations. Just because we have the luxury of 20/20 hindsight of history doesn't make the events of his administration any less relevant.

I just said Clinton never took us into an unnecessary war. Both he and Bush seem to have failed against the terrorists but Bush took us into a war that we should never be in. Let's see Clinton lied about (pardon my french) a b*&W J*b. ANd Bush lied about taking this country into war. I think one lie is worse than the other. Just my 2 cents.

[carogonza]

I blame Clinton for the fact that the milk was sour this morning. Oh, and for that flat tire I had last week.

That whole mad cow stuff? Clinton's fault.

And, I believe Hillary practices witchcraft.

Jeesh.

Hey I blame Chelsea for having my transmission break down a couple of weeks ago. :halo:

[hort1]

Oh yeah forgot about Chelsea, I'm not sure what she's done to me lately but I'm sure there's something.

Never liked that Socks or Buddie either.

[carogonza]

Oh yeah forgot about Chelsea, I'm not sure what she's done to me lately but I'm sure there's something.

Never liked that Socks or Buddie either.

hort,
she may have done nothing lately but she's plotting it. Believe you me, she's plotting it.

[MrDave]

Current,

The numbers of wounded are not included in any "official" reports, but estimated at above 4000, and many of these are serious leaving the soldier disabled for life.

I would also like to chime in that thousands and thousands of Iraqi civilians were also killed. This war was fought over a lie and is deteriorating every day.

I can see Iraq turning into the next Iran. Not a good thing. I also see that the world is not a safer place now, nor will it be for years, because of this crap war.

Bush is an idiot with a gun. Aren't there laws about giving mentally ill people weapons?

[Current]

Mr Dave,
Thank you for bringing that up. When I started this thread, I didn't mention the wounded and disabled, I should have.

Not to mention the things that the POW's have had to go through. And the things that the future POW's will have to go through. If anyone believes that there will be no more American POW's in this "conflict", so be it, but personally, I think this is just starting. Already today Japanese, Arab aid workers from Jerusalem, and eight South Korean Christian missionaries have been taken hostage. It is just a matter of time before more Americans and other people will suffer the same fate.

I think the ramifications of this war are going to be awful. And it is going to get much worse.

[Mary Beth]

Yes, thanks MrDave for reminding us about the wounded.

Many of them are over at Walter Reed. It's because of the body armor (that many of the soldiers have purchased themselves) that the wounds are things like missing arms, legs and blindness. All the things that the body armor isn't protecting.

There have been some stories in the Washington Post, because the wounded soldiers are so close.

[iggy1I]

If this is true, then we're in a heap of trouble...
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/08/international/middleeast/08SHIA.html?hp

Account of Broad Shiite Revolt Contradicts White House Stand

(a snippet)
WASHINGTON, April 7 — United States forces are confronting a broad-based Shiite uprising that goes well beyond supporters of one militant Islamic cleric who has been the focus of American counterinsurgency efforts, United States intelligence officials said Wednesday.

That assertion contradicts repeated statements by the Bush administration and American officials in Iraq. On Wednesday, Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld and Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that they did not believe the United States was facing a broad-based Shiite insurgency. Administration officials have portrayed Moktada al-Sadr, a rebel Shiite cleric who is wanted by American forces, as the catalyst of the rising violence within the Shiite community of Iraq.

But intelligence officials now say that there is evidence that the insurgency goes beyond Mr. Sadr and his militia, and that a much larger number of Shiites have turned against the American-led occupation of Iraq, even if they are not all actively aiding the uprising.

A year ago, many Shiites rejoiced at the American invasion and the toppling of Saddam Hussein, a Sunni who had brutally repressed the Shiites for decades. But American intelligence officials now believe that hatred of the American occupation has spread rapidly among Shiites, and is now so large that Mr. Sadr and his forces represent just one element..

[Mary Beth]

Iggy, I have some bad news for you. We're in a heap of trouble.

[Veuve-Cliquot]

No Sh*t. I know that I was arguing in this very thread a few days ago that we shouldn't leave Iraq right now, but let me "pull a Kerry" and waffle on this subject, as I've had a few days to think about it, and the developments in Iraq have caused me to change my mind.

Even the most liberal Iraqis, at this point, are anti-American. I don't see any way that we can possibly change their minds. (Nor do we really need to, in my opinion).

The White House is saying "We need to make sure that these people are safe, and happy, and not ruled by another dictator." Well, we put Saddam into power in the first place, so why should the Iraqis trust our opinion about ANYTHING?

I think what the White House is really saying is, "This war has cost us a bundle, and gol dang it, we're going to get something in return from it by way of forcing our commercial sense onto them and making a profit."

I don't think there's anything remotely "humanitarian" to gain from our continued occupation, nor do I think that anyone in the White House really cares about anything but profit.

We should stay to make sure that another brutal dictator doesn't come into power? We put Saddam into power! Why should they trust our opinion about what would be good leadership for their country?

[iggy1I]

As much as my heart screams, "get them out of there", I know we can't. Those in the WH need to get on their knees before the UN and beg for some help.
And before someone misconstrues what I say--I back our troops everywhere 100%.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/novak/cst-edt-novak08.html
<snip>

In the afterword following his brilliant account of the actual war, Atkinson wrote: ''Pentagon planners in early May had predicted that U.S. troop levels would be down to 30,000 by late summer [of 2003].'' That was the first time that prediction had been seen in print by startled readers at the Defense Department. The existing 125,000 troop level (currently at 135,000 because of replacements) is considered inadequate by the generals. Gen. John Abizaid, the regional commander-in-chief, has made clear he will ask for more troops if his subordinate commanders need them.

But Afghanistan also needs more troops. So where will they come from? Nobody knows, and that connotes an overcommitment by the United States and a miscalculation at the Defense Department. The uniformed military does not speak out publicly, but the generals are outraged. A former national security official considers the relationship at the Pentagon between civilians and the military as worse than at any time in his long career.

At the heart of this debate is the original belief by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's team that conquering U.S. troops would be welcomed by open arms in Iraq. In this highly political season, Democrats are replaying the debate of a year ago. Gen. Eric Shinseki, then about to leave as the Army's chief of staff, said ''several hundred thousand soldiers'' could be needed in Iraq. ''Way off the mark,'' retorted Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz.

[carogonza]

It sickens me because the Bush administration lied about going into Iraq. I still have no idea why but they did this and now we are paying a really high price and this is just the beginning. I know we can't leave now and it scares me to think how much longer we will have to continue this war. The administration was so irresponsible to take us into war with out help from major allies and to not take into consideration al the things that could have happened and are happening. It's terrible. And I am mad as hell about it. And I wonder that if Bush wins again, if we will begin seeing a draft. :mad2:

[jessgirl242002]

:worry: I am no political expert, whatsoever, but I do know the difference between right and wrong. All I have seen out of Bush is wrong, wrong, wrong!

Plus, besides what he has done with Iraq, and all, he has a political stance that I cannot tolerate. I mean he wants women to all be Stepford wives with no opinion and no say on decisions that pertain to their body. I am not a raging feminist, but women in this country have worked to hard for him to push us back down. Please excuse my language but he is a horses ass! :mad2:

[Maineiac]

...even me, a proponant of the initial Iraqi invasion, now find this culminating in a tragic civil war in which we do not belong. Good Morning Viet Nam! To our credit we disposed of a murderous, inhumane and self-absorbed dictatorship; we have assisted in the rebirth of their own police force and the resurgance of their personal freedoms. However, it is becoming clearer to me that we appear to be replacing the previous dictatorship with one of our own design. This has been a difficult, as well as enlightening transition for me and I humbly accept my prior blind faith :worry:

We need to back off (slowly), but with a cautious and readdy eye on them.

[pechuna]

Interesting comparison to Harry Truman:


http://www.sacbee.com/24hour/opinions/story/1277700p-8374075c.html

[iggy1I]

...even me, a proponant of the initial Iraqi invasion, now find this culminating in a tragic civil war in which we do not belong. Good Morning Viet Nam! To our credit we disposed of a murderous, inhumane and self-absorbed dictatorship; we have assisted in the rebirth of their own police force and the resurgance of their personal freedoms. However, it is becoming clearer to me that we appear to be replacing the previous dictatorship with one of our own design. This has been a difficult, as well as enlightening transition for me and I humbly accept my prior blind faith :worry:

We need to back off (slowly), but with a cautious and readdy eye on them.
Maineiac--that is what everyone has been saying since day one. It hasn't been about us being in Iraq, it's always been about how we got there.

[Maineiac]

[QUOTE=iggy1I]Maineiac--that is what everyone has been saying since day one. It hasn't been about us being in Iraq, it's always been about how we got there.[/QUOTE


I do agree we did needed to intervene, not everyone did. That said, the reasons why are clear to me and I agree with them. However, my concern is why we are still doggedly, with even more force continuing to brow beat that country.

[oldroses]

Saw this story on the news tonight:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/02/24/iraq/main541815.shtml


These figures stood out:
665 U.S. Soldiers dead in the last year
70 Civilians dead
40+ Hostages
700 Insurgents dead this month

:worry:

[goodxxxgirl]

[QUOTE=iluvmichele]September 11, 2001.

very very nice post!!!
dont think i could of said it better myself!!
theresaMI
who has family over there now fighting for OUR country.

[dandylin]

[QUOTE=iluvmichele]September 11, 2001.

very very nice post!!!
dont think i could of said it better myself!!
theresaMI
who has family over there now fighting for OUR country.

I'm sorry, I know I must be dense, but I fail to see that anyone is fighting for our country or our freedom. We were not in harm's way, not by an Iraqi hand anyway.

We have no business over there. This was a huge mistake and a huge mistake that is killing our young men and women and countless civilians in Iraq. Painting over it with red, white, and blue pseudo-patriotism isn't going to change that.

The thing that kills me is that a good portion of the young people over there didn't sign up for guts and glory, they signed up because they had few choices and they thought that they might pick up some skills that would make them more employable or money so that they could go to college. If you asked any one of them, they probably know and understand as much about the politics of the region or even of the U.S. as the average citizen, which is not much, nor nearly enough.

These are the kids of the working class. Bush's daughters, nor Cheney's ever had to make a choice that included joining the military. It's a class thing. Their kids are not in harm's way, neither should our kids be.

[dandylin]

Since I think I started the jingoist finger pointing, I'll furnish a definition:

extreme chauvinism or nationalism marked especially by a belligerent foreign policy


A definition of...
Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si-
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality -- J. W. Aldridge>

Scarey stuff, huh?

[TabooU]

Great answer. That says it all. OK let me see if I understand this. He doesn't agree with the war but he just re-upped in the military. Correct? He joined the military because he needed the money. Correct? You married him knowing that he could be called off to a war. Correct? So my conclusion is that you are both hypocrites. He is only in the military for the good stuff but doesn't want to uphold his end of the bargain. I mean really. If he and you don't agree with the war, then why didn't he stay at home all safe and flip burgers? That would be because you both wanted the bennies but bitch about the the work you have to do to get them. That is the definition of a hypocrite.

Leave her alone. She has enough to deal with. Yeah maybe she did attack you but can't you imagine how she feels. Be the adult and back off.

[MrDave]

:frown3:

[advantage2000]

:frown3:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=5&u=/nm/20040422/ts_nm/iraq_photograph_dc

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A U.S. contractor and her husband have been fired after her photograph of 20 flag-draped coffins of U.S. soldiers going home from Iraq was published in violation of military rules.

[dandylin]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=5&u=/nm/20040422/ts_nm/iraq_photograph_dc

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A U.S. contractor and her husband have been fired after her photograph of 20 flag-draped coffins of U.S. soldiers going home from Iraq was published in violation of military rules.


Well you know we are not allowed to see the dead come home and heaven help you if you cross this administration

[MrDave]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=5&u=/nm/20040422/ts_nm/iraq_photograph_dc

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A U.S. contractor and her husband have been fired after her photograph of 20 flag-draped coffins of U.S. soldiers going home from Iraq was published in violation of military rules.


So backwards. The PR of war. Hmph.

[MrDave]

The soldiers that have died serving our country in Iraq.

http://www.militarycity.com/valor/honor.html

[Current]

Thank you MrDave............for bringing this thread back to what I meant it to be.

[Current]

I started this thread when the total of Americans killed was 610.


What is the total now????

I hope that Bush and his administration can sleep well tonight. I bet they can sleep better then those family members who have lost a loved one since this war started.

Those family members are crying.

But I bet Bush and his cronies will get a good nights' sleep tonight.

There are so many Mothers, Fathers, Sisters, Brothers, Daughters, Sons, Uncles, Aunts, Cousins, etc.....that are crying tonight.

Is Bush doing the same? Or is he focused upon his re-election?

[pattyepye]

I started this thread when the total of American lifes lost were 610.


What is the total now????

I hope that Bush and his administration can sleep well tonight. I bet they can sleep better then those family members who have lost a loved one since this war started.

Those family members are crying.

But I bet Bush and his cronies will get a good nights' sleep tonight.

There are so many Mothers, Fathers, Sisters, Brothers, Daughters, Sons, Uncles, Aunts, Cousins, etc.....that are crying tonight.

Is Bush doing the same? Or is he focused upon his re-election?

Thanks Current, for reminding us that is a war that is taking lives.

I just don't see how people can be so blindly led by the idea that this is a war that is "keeping us safe". The war on terrorism will always be with us, and it is not centrally located in the country of Iraq.

I hope that people will become disenchanted with the military answer that is taking the lives of their loved ones. And I hope they will remember in November, when they have their chance to speak their voice against madness.